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Fan-List. Heavy Mechanised IG.

 Post subject: Re: Fan-List. Heavy Mechanised IG.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2015 1:27 am 
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ortron wrote:
Cool list Matty,

We were chatting about something similar last year but never got around to it. Have you considered making it a "Cadian 6th Armoured Regt" list out of IA11?

Unfortunately I haven't got IA11. I've got IA1 2nd edition, so based the new unit stats from that. If you could pm me a pdf, some photos of the pages or a summary of the list I'd be more than happy to have a look at it.

ortron wrote:
I like the Praetor and Dominus and they look ok at first glance, definitely see the bombard cannon working better on a 4+RA 2DC platform than it does on the current bombard. I would consider both moving at 20cm though as there isn't fluff that I can see making them slower than leman russes etc. True they don't have the "overdrive" of the Crassus but they still share a faster than normal SHT chassis.

I've based their speed on the Macharius tanks in the Krieg list(which I cloned into this list). They have the same chassis and in the absence of special rules (like the crassus gets) the 15cm speed seemed reasonable. IA1-2nd edition doesn't have published top speeds for these units unfortunately.

ortron wrote:
For the praetor AA variant, might i recommend a single 60 or even 75cm AA3+ shot? (essentially a giant hunter) Whilst it can put out a bunch of missiles, lets just say they all have be locked onto one AC each time it fires, so its likely to hit a single target well, if its multiple AC you want to defend against then you'll need hydra to sweep the skies. Alternatively, since it is a WE, consider a fire arc on it so if you don't position it well its arc will only protect part of the battlefield.

The single shot would actually be worse than the options discussed above (0.67 hits vs. 1.5 or whatever it was). The best way to make it giant killer would be to make it a tk AA (!), but I just went with multiple dice to achieve a similar same result. I just math'd out a combo that was similar to the hydra, but a little different. Since it's epic and not 40k I figured that multiple shots wasn't too unreasonable in the interest of game and list balance and not inventing game breaking TKAA. I think it would be too underwhelming with a single shot, and I don't really have a feel for how game breaking it would be to give it a 75cm range, but gut feel says "be wary". But I'm happy to try that out some time to see how it rolls if the 1.5 hit option seems too overpowered.

ortron wrote:
I think you could allow single SHTs as a support formation, they're pretty common across the IG/AM but clearly don't have to be a core choice in all armies.

One of the ways that I have tried to balance this list is to remove the options of single SHT's, and make activation count fairly challenging to manage. I figured that there had to be a down side for(potentially) taking so many super-heavies in one army. I might have gone too far, but will have a play with it as is and see how it feels. What you propose here is possibly one of the first things I would try. After all it is theoretically possible to take an entire steel legion army composed of nothing but 3dc SHT's, and it's not like that gets run too much.

ortron wrote:
Finally I would recommend allowing chimera as a transport option or replacing the infantry company without transport for an option of one in chimeras, because that will still focus the list down the mech inf side of things with a focus on Praetor, Dominus, Macharius support. I'd suggest you don't limit other transport options too severely because remember not everyone will be able to access/convert models required for this list, so too restrictive core choices will limit playtesters.

Yep, fair point. If I replace the unit rather than have chimeras as an upgrade then the only potential garrisons are the salamanders and the transport-less stormtroopers, which I think is fine. It might be worth keeping the hydra rather than having the sky-killer for the same reason.

ortron wrote:
Overall thanks for your efforts so far. I will hopefully be able to offer some test data on this in the new year.

Cheers mate. Sounds good.


lord-bruno wrote:
Matty_C wrote:
What he said. Special rules to make it fast for a super heavy. Costed appropriately.


Ehm, no. Gorgons are much better (walker instead of 25cm speed seems fair, but the massive boost of DC3) for the same price.

To be hones I think this is an issue with the gorgon rather than the crassus. Matt-Shadowlord is doing some good work with the Krieg list and the gorgons at the moment. I think he has them at 100 points each with the changes he is working on now, with the mortars no longer being a free upgrade, and limited to two per formation.

The crassus feels about right to me at the moment, based on a steel legion comparison.
75 points = three chimeras.
It takes 4.5 AT hits to kill them, vs 8 for the crassus thanks to its better armour. The crassus is 5cm slower, but doesn't slow the formation until it's lost 2dc, but doesn't have the (admittedly poor) AT attacks the chimeras have. In a firefight they both cause 1 hit, but the crassus is more resilient. I don't really see a need to reduce it's points based on that, but I will play test and reserve the right to change my mind at a moment's notice. :D

I have a game with this list against fattdex's iron hands tonight, so I'll report back here what my thoughts are after that. Plus he knows his way around the list building process so might be able to point out some other things I might have missed.

Thanks for the comments everyone. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Fan-List. Heavy Mechanised IG.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2015 9:36 pm 
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Largo_W wrote:
Gorgons are too good for their points though. Compare them to Battlefortresses and Baneblade/Shadowsword. 125 for a pair is a bargain.


¿? there are no Gorgons in this list.

Matty_C wrote:
The crassus feels about right to me at the moment, based on a steel legion comparison.
75 points = three chimeras.
It takes 4.5 AT hits to kill them, vs 8 for the crassus thanks to its better armour. The crassus is 5cm slower, but doesn't slow the formation until it's lost 2dc, but doesn't have the (admittedly poor) AT attacks the chimeras have. In a firefight they both cause 1 hit, but the crassus is more resilient. I don't really see a need to reduce it's points based on that, but I will play test and reserve the right to change my mind at a moment's notice. :D


Yes, that's all true, but Chimeras don't suffer much against MW or TK, Crassus do, a lot. You don't want 7 infantry stands riding in a DC2 transport if there is any MW or TK around.

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 Post subject: Re: Fan-List. Heavy Mechanised IG.
PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 12:57 am 
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So I played a game with the list the other night. It was 3000pts, and I went up against 30k Iron Hands.
JB had forgotten his warhounds, so had to improvise a bit to make the points. I think he ended up taking 3 fellblades and a glaive, as well as a land raider company with SC (BTS), two formations of basilisks, one of predators, one of jet bikes and a mechanicum infantry formation. There might have been a bit more than that, but that is the guts of the list.

My list was a RHQ, A heavy mech Infantry co with support squad and extra crassus (BTS), an infantry co on foot, 2 stormtrooper formations in crassus, a salamander formation, and one of each of Praetor, Omega and Macharius formations.

This list allowed me to try out most of the units, and take a lot of crassus to see how they perform. As JB didn't have any fliers, or flier defence I didn't take any either.

I wont do a batrep up, but I will describe how each of the formations went.

The RHQ stayed in the crassus at the end of turn 1, after doubling behind a hill. They were prepped, corssfired (for 1dc I think) and engaged by the land raiders. They lost this and fell back, losing three bases and a crassus. When they rallied they were then commanded by the heavy mech company when it engaged. They then suffered from what is probably the biggest mistake I've ever made in EA, and forgot to disimbark them when they engaged! I blame this on the fact I was using wooden proxies for the crassus', the fact I had a couple of beers, and general ineptitude (my commanders potential new nickname! :D). So they lost the crassus they were in and were wiped out. OOps.
The RHQ is a good formation. Unlike death corps, they can disembark and shoot, so have uses other than being an engagement tool.
The Hvy Infantry co failed to activate on turn 1, so while the rest of the infantry doubled forward on turn 1 to prep for engagements turn 2, the biggest, most useful formation didn't get to. This hampered their use a bit, but they ended up engaging the land raiders and driving them off (with the SC only just surviving). By adding in the upgrade of the heavies in another crassus I made them BTS rather than the RHQ. The third crassus was handy, as was the extra shooting. The fact that they are fairly fast helped them recover from the first turn debacle too.
The stormtrooper formations doubled turn 1, and engaged turn 2. One bounced off a fellblade, and the other took one out. The added crassus units added to the opponents target selection woes, and there were quite a lot of formations with dc2 units that had to be taken out fast.
Overall I thought the crassus were suprisingly fast, and when taken en-mass pretty powerful. JB didn't have and TK(dX) weapons though, so they would have been a problem. I would have targetted those with extreme prejudice if he had brought any.
The omegas failed to activate, were heavily suppressed, and fired a total of 2 plasma shots for the four turn game. But they soaked up a fair bit of fire.
The Macharius suffered a similar fate.
The praetors well and truly won the artillery war. They weathered a turn of basilisk fire, then shot back, broke a unit, and suppressed and ground down the other one. Their parting shot was at the SC's land raider, but couldn't win me the game.

The final result was a ~1500pt a side draw. With some very bad luck on both sides.
My salamanders crit'd a fellblade when preping it for a storm trooper engagement. I'm sure the salamander crews were as surprised as the fellblade one!

Kids are dragging me away. Will post some more thoughts later.

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 Post subject: Re: Fan-List. Heavy Mechanised IG.
PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2015 6:05 am 
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Any updates to this list? I'm looking to start an IG force soon-ish, and would like to build a collection along these lines if the list is under active development.


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 Post subject: Re: Fan-List. Heavy Mechanised IG.
PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2015 4:44 am 
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Not really mate sorry. I'm fully immersed in 30k at the moment.

However in one of life's little twists of fate I'll be moving to Tassie in a little over a month. PM me your details and I can send you a copy of the files if you like.
Cheers
Mat
Edit: I will be doing some more work on the list soon. I will work in some of the changes suggested above and post an updated PDF in the next week or so.

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 Post subject: Re: Fan-List. Heavy Mechanised IG.
PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2015 9:57 am 
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lord-bruno wrote:
Matty_C wrote:
The crassus feels about right to me at the moment, based on a steel legion comparison.
75 points = three chimeras.
It takes 4.5 AT hits to kill them, vs 8 for the crassus thanks to its better armour. The crassus is 5cm slower, but doesn't slow the formation until it's lost 2dc, but doesn't have the (admittedly poor) AT attacks the chimeras have. In a firefight they both cause 1 hit, but the crassus is more resilient. I don't really see a need to reduce it's points based on that, but I will play test and reserve the right to change my mind at a moment's notice. :D


Yes, that's all true, but Chimeras don't suffer much against MW or TK, Crassus do, a lot. You don't want 7 infantry stands riding in a DC2 transport if there is any MW or TK around.

Sorry Bruno I forgot to comment on my thoughts about this. Now it's months later it seems a little late, but I will and hope you forgive me for the delay! :)

I guess in a list that contains quite a few war engines the Crassus should benefit from some target selection dramas the opponent will have (I know that isn't a viable tactic, but units like the praetors and dominus' are high priority targets). I have also included the option of upgrading the infantry companies with battletanks and a macharius to act as ablative wounds to help deliver the crassus' to where they need to be. Not a strategy without flaws, but something I included in the list deliberately.

Also, thanks for the feedback :)

On to the next thing I wanted to say.
I have just uploaded the v0.2 draft PDF up in the first post.
I added in most of the suggestions that people made to date. Feel free to have a look and let me know what you think!
Thanks. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Fan-List. Heavy Mechanised IG.
PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2015 10:13 am 
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Loving the list - infact I'm making a Guard Army for them


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 Post subject: Re: Fan-List. Heavy Mechanised IG.
PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2015 11:03 am 
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Bombard has a range on 45 cm yet the Dominus variant has a range on 30cm, is that a typo? also the Dominus carries x3 Hvy Siege Mortars so should be 3x 2BP as it isnt slow firing? or perhaps adjust it to 6BP per turn range 45?


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 Post subject: Re: Fan-List. Heavy Mechanised IG.
PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2015 11:44 am 
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junkstar wrote:
Loving the list - infact I'm making a Guard Army for them

Awesome Junkstar! Glad to hear it!
The dominus bombard should be 45cm. Well spotted! I'll add the correction to the next update.
Cheers.

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 Post subject: Re: Fan-List. Heavy Mechanised IG.
PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2015 12:13 pm 
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Matty_C wrote:
junkstar wrote:
Loving the list - infact I'm making a Guard Army for them

Awesome Junkstar! Glad to hear it!
The dominus bombard should be 45cm. Well spotted! I'll add the correction to the next update.
Cheers.


Cool glad to help and once painted etc will play test to death. What Guard Regiments is this list aimed at? DKoK or any?


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 Post subject: Re: Fan-List. Heavy Mechanised IG.
PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2015 3:51 pm 
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Following on from the Praetor Range compared to the Sky fire Range, yes same platform however different missiles used. For its price and being able to be broken with 2 BM, is there scope to add a second Skyfire to the Sky Killer Pl or as its been suggested up its range to 75cm, bearing in mind the Necron AA Pylon is 200 points and has 90 cm range?

Perhaps x3 at 450 points with x75cm range? and the ability to purchase individual @ 150?

Just seems with their limited movement, their 75cm range would benefit a Heavy mechanised force. True purchase of a Hydra is there but that too will have stunted movement as per the units its attached to therefore reducing the effectiveness of an overlapping AA cover hence the boost to 75cm


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 Post subject: Re: Fan-List. Heavy Mechanised IG.
PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2015 8:32 pm 
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The AA in this list needs a lot of tuning. I'm happy to try out the sky-killers at 75cm in formations of 1-3. It seems a little over the top when I type it, but playing a few games will be a good litmus test.
I was trying them as single vehicle formations to keep them on par with a unit of hydras, and to nerf the lists internal balance by eating up support slots.

I think I said elsewhere that I probably over nerfed it, so added in singleton baneblades and shadowswords. I'm happy to try formations of 1-3 sky killers but wouldn't be surprised if I need to throttle them back to formations of 1 later on.

As for your question about the regiment, Ortron suggested the Cadian 6th (I think), which I liked after reading the Forgeworld book these super heavies are in. But then I thought that might be a little too confusing with the Cadians already having a list. This game is confusing enough to get into as it is!
Then I read this quote in the Praetor entry:
Quote:
When Ork blood falls like rain from the sky then shall I be satisfied.
Colonel Zandus, XIV Kathargo Armoured Regiment

I thought the Kathargo 14th Armoured might be a good, unique name. It just lacks a little something.
The Cadians are Shock Troops.
The Armageddon-ians are Steel Legion.
The Kreig are Death Corps.
The Catachans are Jungle Fighters.
The Kathargo are ?

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 Post subject: Re: Fan-List. Heavy Mechanised IG.
PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2015 10:41 pm 
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I'm spread concerned about the combination of AA range, shots, and to roll. I hadn't said anything yet as I wasn't sure how the singleton was going to work out and, as you said, they eat up support slots. I think they 're likelysubpar and wont be taken but that's more to do with hydras being so great. 3, DC2 WE with huge AA bubbles: Nooooooo way

As to what and who this list is for? Any and All armies. Anything, and I mean that, somewhere has a heavy mobile force in play, be them cadians, DKoK, Steel Legion, etc. The name really describes what it is and unless you're picking one of the well known planets you'll probably be causing confusion. Sorry, we used up those good ones ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Fan-List. Heavy Mechanised IG.
PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2015 10:00 am 
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Good points Jimmy. I think I crunched some numbers earlier on and came up with the sky killer being similar in output to three hydras. At least it would deliver the same number of hits on average as three hydras. It's movement rate was slower, but it had a longer range to compensate. So I did put a fair bit of thought into the stats in the PDF. It's all coming back to me now. :D

Heavy Mechanised. What it says on the tin. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Fan-List. Heavy Mechanised IG.
PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2015 1:53 pm 
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Matty_C wrote:
Good points Jimmy. I think I crunched some numbers earlier on and came up with the sky killer being similar in output to three hydras. At least it would deliver the same number of hits on average as three hydras. It's movement rate was slower, but it had a longer range to compensate. So I did put a fair bit of thought into the stats in the PDF. It's all coming back to me now. :D

Heavy Mechanised. What it says on the tin. ;)


Heavy Mech means bringing heavier deadlier units into the fight, not substituting 3dc hydra formation for a single equivalent vehicle with 2 DC, what would the point in having skyfire when 3 hydras do the job?


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