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DKoK...

 Post subject: Re: DKoK...
PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2015 7:46 am 
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JimXII wrote:
Matt Shadowlord, did you want to throw up your ideas for the DKoK?


I have them in a PDF document that is a modified version of the whole army, but will send Rug a PM rather than post it. It's his list, and while I could contibute to it I don't want to steal his thunder.


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 Post subject: Re: DKoK...
PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 1:21 pm 
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Rug won't mind...


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 Post subject: Re: DKoK...
PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 10:06 am 
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JimXII wrote:
maybe WE, DC2 5+ save, RA, immobile, slow firing. For 225. The points are balanced by the RA and the slow firing. Thoughts?

Sounds fine to me. I'd much rather this than change to normal Deathstrikes. Perhaps a nasty explosion for nearby troops too as a critical?

I hope we don't get too extensive changes. Making the Gorgon more expensive and with a worse critical, removing single Warhounds and dropping Krieg infantrymen's CC to 6+ would fix the balance problems nicely without reducing the character of the list (I strongly dislike Epic-UK's version of the Death Korps list).


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 Post subject: Re: DKoK...
PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 2:02 pm 
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I agree with everything said by GlynG and then +1 more :D

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 Post subject: Re: DKoK...
PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 2:28 pm 
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GlynG wrote:
(I strongly dislike Epic-UK's version of the Death Korps list).
Oh? Could you expand further please, if only to give further insight into the issue and potential fixes.
Note, I have no particular preferences either way, save finding a solution that is acceptable to all.


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 Post subject: Re: DKoK...
PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 12:26 am 
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Ginger wrote:
GlynG wrote:
(I strongly dislike Epic-UK's version of the Death Korps list).
Oh? Could you expand further please, if only to give further insight into the issue and potential fixes.

The Epic-UK version cuts down a lot on the detail and character of the Death Korps from the 40k and net-ea list, which appeals to me as a fan of the Vraks books. The net-ea DK list is one of my favourite epic lists while the Epic-UK version is probably my least favourite Epic-UK list.

There are many units removed or abstracted but I mainly miss the lack of Trojans and Centaurs, Heavy Mortars and Quad Guns, Deathstrike Silo, Thunderer, Macharius variants and the Engineer formation.
I prefer the poorer, cheaper, Death Riders in the net-ea list as it gives more of a horde feel.
I prefer the net-ea Medusa stats and role, reflecting the Medusa Platform's ability to indirect fire to long range.
I prefer the net-ea DK fire support, with half heavy stubbers.

I'm not suggesting changing the Epic-UK list, but I wouldn't want to see the net-ea list follow suit.


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 Post subject: Re: DKoK...
PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 8:44 am 
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GlynG wrote:
The Epic-UK version cuts down a lot on the detail and character of the Death Korps from the 40k and net-ea list, which appeals to me as a fan of the Vraks books. The net-ea DK list is one of my favourite epic lists while the Epic-UK version is probably my least favourite Epic-UK list.

There are many units removed or abstracted but I mainly miss the lack of Trojans and Centaurs, Heavy Mortars and Quad Guns, Deathstrike Silo, Thunderer, Macharius variants and the Engineer formation.
I prefer the poorer, cheaper, Death Riders in the net-ea list as it gives more of a horde feel.
I prefer the net-ea Medusa stats and role, reflecting the Medusa Platform's ability to indirect fire to long range.
I prefer the net-ea DK fire support, with half heavy stubbers.

I'm not suggesting changing the Epic-UK list, but I wouldn't want to see the net-ea list follow suit.

I agree with this as well. I wouldn't perhaps say I strongly dislike it, but we should not strive for the epic-UK list it does seem dull compared to the net-EA version.

The one exception I see though is the silo. I could live without that one. It's a bit silly (IMO) and at least needs a big nerf like discussed earlier.


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 Post subject: Re: DKoK...
PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 9:55 am 
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Pretty much this, there are so many bits and pieces in the netEA list that aren't in the epicuk one, it seems a bit plain by comparison. I'd hope a light touch should be able to sort this one out...


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 Post subject: Re: DKoK...
PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 1:04 pm 
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I would have thought the silo only makes sense if you're playing in trench style, not gorgon smash n grab

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 Post subject: Re: DKoK...
PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 4:53 pm 
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GlynG wrote:
Ginger wrote:
GlynG wrote:

There are many units removed or abstracted but I mainly miss the lack of Trojans and Centaurs, Heavy Mortars and Quad Guns, Deathstrike Silo, Thunderer, Macharius variants and the Engineer formation.


Quad Guns are present, just renamed as Light Artillery.

I miss the LR Thunderer though.

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 Post subject: Re: DKoK...
PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 9:06 pm 
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Kyrt wrote:
I would have thought the silo only makes sense if you're playing in trench style, not gorgon smash n grab

It is true that it would only make sense with at least some trenches. Hmm... maybe this could be an actual list requirement? State in the Deathstrike Silo entry in the army list that it "May only be taken if at least two Trenchworks formations are taken". I'd like this to be in addition to the reduced DC and save too.

The list should encourage trench / artillery style play though, it's the way DK are meant to fight virtually all the time - it's not uncommon for their artillery pieces to sit unmoving in one location firing for years or decades. Massed Gorgon assaults happen only very occasionally when a situation calls for it, but the current DK lists have wonky internal balance making this the much more competitive and regularly used option.


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 Post subject: Re: DKoK...
PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 9:31 pm 
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You do make a reasonable argument against it. People with a model for one could just use it as an objective marker instead.


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 Post subject: Re: DKoK...
PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 9:42 pm 
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I definitely think the DKOK list is massively overstuffed at present, having almost as many tank choices as the minervans, two flavours of elite stormtrooper-esque infantry, and even two different types of transport for different types of emplaced weapons, it just has way more toys than it needs IMO

it was also written from the ground up as a siegebreaking list with the focus heavily on attack rather than the boring-as-batshit siegemasters, if you want loads of trenches and static artillery, the baran list will give you all the mediocrity you desire ;) it has nothing to do with 'wonky' internal balance, the list was specifically written to avoid static, defensive play

I like the suggestions earlier, increase the cost of the gorgons, maybe make them have a more dangerous crit, get rid of singleton warhounds, and do something about the deathstrike silo, too many changes in one go will mean we end up not knowing which factor was the most significant, we can always tweak further if more changes are neccessary after a period of playtesting :)

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 Post subject: Re: DKoK...
PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2015 1:38 am 
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kyussinchains wrote:
it was also written from the ground up as a siegebreaking list with the focus heavily on attack rather than the boring-as-batshit siegemasters, if you want loads of trenches and static artillery, the baran list will give you all the mediocrity you desire ;) it has nothing to do with 'wonky' internal balance, the list was specifically written to avoid static, defensive play

I believe you're wrong on that. I was around when the Krieg list was being developed and it was designed to flexible and able to be run mobile or static, or a mix. Just like SM or CSM armies can be run as planetfall armies, mechanised armies or a mix. The FW Vraks books make it very clear that the DK tactics are to make war in an extremely static trench warfare way, writing the list specifically to avoid that would have been inappropriate and against their background.

Are siege armies always boring to play? I wouldn't want to play one all the time, but it could be fun to play with or against one for something different occasionally. Similar with all planetfall armies or all titan armies. I've fielded DK armies without Gorgons and found them fine and you'll still have some mobile/fast elements in a list (Death Riders, Grenadiers, Engineers or Titans).


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