Hi all,

So after facing off against Shadowlords Krieg at CANCON I am sure of two things.
1. Matt is an exceptional gamer.
2. Gorgons are by far the most vaule for money survivable warengine transport in the game.

I am sure matt could do up a spreadsheet to compare other warengine transports but I am certain you will find none cheaper and none so survivable.

Also if you look at regular guard formations they are all more expensive then the krieg inf at 20 stands and Have weaker transport options.

To that end I propose the following changes to be discussed/math hammered/playtested.
1. Gorgons increased to 100 points each.
2. Gorgons critical is changed to destroyed.
3. Gorgons loose walker.
4. Gorgons speed decreased to 15cm.

Thoughts?

Cheers,
Jim

So having played against Dkok only once and yes i was pantsed.
But, Matt is an exceptionally good player, on another level to myself, could not agree enough with Jim, a fantastic player. He dominated 28mm 40k here in Australia and is now playing epic for something different, playing well in epic is clearly showing he is an all-round good player.
So I'm in no way butt-hurt, nor are the changes to the list going to effect my little gaming group as no one plays Dkok locally.

However i would like to make the following notes on the side of pushing for some balance.

Consider the ork battle fortress - 115 points for 8 transport cap, no Reinforced armour, destroyed straight up on crit roll

As opposed to Gorgons being 62.5 points each for dc3 4+ Reinforced armour, walker ability, 10 transport cap and a 60cm bp weapon. full unit cost for a standard infantry company in 2 gorgons = 425pts, an ork formation of similar size will cost you 580 points

There's the obvious argument that the orks have shooting and better in CC, however in the right hands, someone who know's what they're doing the dkok are going to set up FF engagements, where i believe they do rather well with 5+ FF and throw inspiring in there. obviously setting up firefights with the gorgons closer to soak up damage which I have nothing against, but they do it exceptionally well at the moment.

So i basically agree with everything Jim proposes to be play tested, however finding a way to keep walker on the tanks feels right, as from all the fluff that backs up these Goliath transports smashing through all in its way to deliver the emperors fist to your face.

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I think some of Jims points are on the right track. Points 3 and 4 in my opinion should be left alone as Walker fits the flavour and fluff of gorgons, and i dont think their movement is the issue.

Points 1 and 2 should be given some serious thought. A change to the critical is sorely needed in my opinion. Even if it were to change to a 1-3 Explode 4-6 immobilize. Points as always should be looked at last after all other changes have been considered/made.

Sam

I think the Gorgons are underpriced, and are too good for their points cost.

Death Korps have been hit by a few nerfs over the last couple of years (the WE countercharge faq, removal of scout-forward engines, the changes to medusa etc), but remain very strong due to their combat ability, and gorgons and their massive infantry formations are a large and under-costed part of that.

The difficulty has been that in a list with only 2 core options (the other is Epic's weakest RR), if they are made too unviable the list stops functioning. I've been giving this some thought over the last couple of months, during which I've played games against DKOK as well as with them and tried some new changes, and am in the process of drawing up a new modified, tweaked version of the list.

Note this is E&C's baby so these will just be suggestions, but the goal is to keep it playable and competitive while making it more fairly priced and a better experience for opponents.

E&C hasn't had anything to do with this list for years.
It now falls onto Rug's shoulders as the Guard AC.

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Terrible Jim, just terrible.

This thread here should probably be referenced for the current DKoK balance discussion
viewtopic.php?f=74&t=28272

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I remember when Gorgons were upped to 20cm move. It was for "balance". I also remember not seeing a whole lot of reports for that. It moves the same speed as a banblade in the fluff and 40k, yet it moves faster in EA.

The same goes for the crit. It get's off easier than the warhounds used to. Call it detroyed just like every other 3 DC. The stuff inside is still going to get a 6+ cover. Ork Fortresses are in the same boat.

Those are the big items. After that 4 frag missile shots that the mortars are being called 2BP, and the armored ramp not granting an invulnerable are minor.

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Crit and price probably need some reevaluation. I'm not really sure they should be 3DC in the first place (yeah yeah I know, structure points in 40k). Soaking up 6 hits and dealing that many dice in FF is probably quite discouraging to face.

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Fudd and kookookrazy big make some relevant points.
And Dave, Matt, Jimmy, and onyx - you all appear to be in agreement. Coolio.

Thanks for posting that link Jimmy.

The Gorgon did come as a shock because we (my gaming group) have been using brumbaers army Gen, which had the gorgons @6++ save, and not the krieg list.

So would 100 points per gorgon be appropriate or is that still too cheap?

I can see mats points about trying to balance the viability of b the list with the limited options available. But I think more expensive Gorgons could lead to some interesting static krieg builds with large RR formations.

Is there any other elements people think should be placed under the microscope?

The krieg infantry formation is the cheapest 20 unit formation in the game too. Even orks and nids pay premium for that size formation. I don't necessarily think it should change, but maybe s consideration for the base unit size to be 14 plus commander. With the option to add up to 3 upgrades of 5 stands.

Thoughts?

Isn't it based on the Macharius chassis? That one has DC2, Critical: destroyed, and 15cm movement.

That said, the Gorgon should be lighter than the Macharius and therefore faster. 20cm makes some sense - what's the point of a walking-pace transport, anyway? But surely there's an armor penalty for taking the roof off. (Honestly, I don't understand the concept. It was invented in a WWI-like setting full of artillery, and they make it open-topped??)

It doesn't carry enough ammo to explode catastrophically. I think the critical should have something to do with a number of passengers getting blown up inside the transport, without the Gorgon itself taking any extra damage.

I agree that killing a few passengers would be a decent crit effect rather than the thing exploding, as previously said it doesnt have a massive ammo store like a tank or gunfortress... upping the cost would be worth doing as well, I think slowing them down, coupled with a stronger crit effect would make them kind of redundant as a transport as its a much bigger risk putting the inf inside with marginal benefit

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Sorry, it seems that this discussion was already quite long and recent in the thread that Jimmy posted.

I know Rug had already made some suggestions that were both accepted and contradicted.
What about a look at the following suggestions for playtest.
1. Gorgons upgrade costs 100 points each (200 for 2).
2. Critical hit effect: The shot has Penetrated the transport compartment sending searing hot metal and fragmentation ricocheting through the confines of the troop bay. All infantry on board take a 6+ save. Further criticals destroy the gorgon.

(This keeps the flavor of the Gorgon but also aligns with the devestation of Crits on other WE.
3. Commisars added to DkoK infantry companies must be assigned to the commander or supreme Commander stand. (No fearless dc3 we commisars...)
4. Deathstrike silo remains at the same points but goes to DC2 and 5++.

5. Marcharius dropped to 300 points.

Thoughts?
I know you said you have some additions Matt. I've only played with krieg a few times and only with 6++ Gorgons so your experience using them combined with onyx's straightforward approach to list design I'm sure we can generate some changes that will enable us to reach a consensus.

Cheers Jim