Signal wrote:
1: Versatility) It is true that taking independent gliders puts a strain on the allies section. My intention was that most formations which wanted to deploy via aircraft would take them as in-formation craft, which would exempt them from allies status. The independent gravgliders were to serve two purposes: First, to act as transports for those units which don't have access to them organically (namely Sentinels and Stormtroopers) and Second, to allow for extraction (which definitely requires a decent price tag). I think a certain amount of trade-off between 'utility' air and 'offense' air is necessary. Pricing something which is actually effective at both roles would be rather difficult, especially if it was good enough to act as competition with the Marauders and GravGliders.
yeah. my idea with "drop off only" marauders was that it would provide a better pricing system than a true 'can do both' thing. being upable to extract forces (for which you'd need dedicated transport craft to do that anyway) should provide a decent price-break, and the fact that it cant bomb and transport in the same turn would help keep the price down a ways. i quite like the feeling of a wave of aircraft dropping in troops, then returning to base to hastily be refitted with bombs to fly back out and support the troops (perhaps enforce an extra turn of stand down, to inflict the "alone without support" claustrophiba that air insertions are supposed to convey. that would also help with a "turn 1 everyone shows up" strategy, because if you wait till turn 2, you mightnt get a bombing run off at all)
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2: Flavour) This is something I'm definitely keen on keeping at the forefront. If it helps, the intent was that the GravGliders were aircraft first, and planetstrike capable second. I'm sorta playing with the idea of removing self-planetstrike from them, but it seems like a good payoff between a "safe but preselected" drop versus "dangerous but dynamic" drop. Could you elaborate a bit on what you see as the difference between the gliders and an aircraft insertion? :) I knew there was a big transport, but I couldn't remember it. Thanks for the reminder, the "High-Altitude Drop" has been renamed the "Onero overflight." The pin-point attack will remain, as it still represents the missiles launched by escorting fighter craft.
well, its less that i see a difference between aircraft and glider insertions, but rather the difference between planetfall and aircraft. planetfall really seems like a great big "drops like a rock" thing, especially if they then leave the plane behind. plus, because they're getting out of the plane at ground level, it doesnt really feel like a parachute drop, ya know.
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A note on the name: I'm not overly fond of the name "grav-glider" myself, but it is included in one of the few canon references to the Warhawks. (pg 61, Imperial Guard Codex, 2003) Although the name could possibly refer to a smaller one-man craft, I figured it was decent to at least include it. I am tempted to change it to "Assault Glider," though.
yeah, i always thought they where more likely to be a personal insertion device (much more akin to the gravchutes used in operation larisel) but yeah, a renaming might be nice, if only cause its really quite a awful name. keeping it for the fluff references is good reasoning, but i am admittedly seeing this more as a Guns Of Tanith/Phantine force (primarily because its more recent, and i have a vested interest in an ongoing epicification of the sabbat worlds crusade)
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Oh totally, that's a great scene. As is the drop in "The Guns of Tanith," although that's a much more light-infantry operation (and uses Marauders) That's the impression that the GravChutes are supposed to represent; the Overflight comes in, and formations basically start dropping from the sky. Mostly what pushes me away from the Marauder-variant is that bombers (or bulk transports) don't have the capability to participate in an Air-Assault mission; that's the purview of the helicopter (Valkyrie), glider (grav-glider), and the heavy landing craft. (Thunderhawks/Landas) I also know the "Expendable" rule is something people are already comfortable with from other lists (the description is listed from the Grot, and also applies to Elysian Cyclops and who knows what else) whereas the Marauder-transport would be highly specific to the Warhawks. :) I can tell you this, however: once we get some playtesting done of the other options, we can definitely reconsider a versatile airdrop/bomber craft. Mostly I'm just worried about redundancy (which is the reason I restrained from adding a drop-pod analogue, despite it being cool.)
i'm quite happy to try this stuff out, i just like the idea of being able to use both from a single aircraft (as mentioned, i was seriously considering putting it into the bloody hand list, which would also serve to fulfil the ambush option i've been toying with, but didnt want to bloat out too much into one list) though i do think the list could do with a bulk lander style option for large scale insertions. actually, i quite like that as an idea, marauders/gliders for 'drop off' but for extraction, you need to call in the valks, or wait for the big ship to come get you.
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New subjects:
Salamander Scouts: seems vaguely appropriate to have advance-reconnaissance elements on the board, but would it remove the role of the Sentinels? I sort of want the Sentinels to be speed 25, but I think that change is probably unnecessary.
i have never really seen salamanders as a proper 'recon' unit in the sense that we think of a sneaky force. its more a "outrider" unit for large armoured columns. i dont think they'd serve a purpose here. if you want a faster scouting unit, i'd take a look at the outriders i have in my bloody hand, they're basically halfway between a salamander and a sentinel. but honestly, i'd consider that the best option for people 'calling in' the airstrikes would be small formations of camoed troops. i'd look seriously at eldar pathfinders. small formations of teleporting snipers. drop scout, and have their 'teleport' represent being in place and jumping out, ala with lictors) nasty stuff. (like i said earlier, i've been toying with an ambush unit for the bloody hand, but it'd probably work better here)
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Independent Glider: Should this be removed and replaced with a truly Superheavy Guard Air-transport? I keep waffling back and forth between "rapid-attack shock troops," and a big-ass Imperial Dropship. It would entail another special unit, however. I would imagine it as something similar to the Cadian Imperial Bastion, only it flies ;)
maybe not replaced, but a lander option seems like a good idea, see above. maybe It, instead of the spaceship, should have the slow and steady rule. the forward elements hit hard, clears a space for the big lander, which unloads its larger formations and mops up. might only be viable for larger battles though. might also force a playstyle schism, either "first turn engagement" or a "everything shows up on third turn for a blitz grab" ala marines...
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Hard-hitters: The list currently does not have access to any Macroweapon attacks, (besides spacecraft) much less Titan Killers. While this is in-theme to a certain extent, it also presents a pretty glaring gap in capability. Facing a Knightworld, AMTL, or Minervan list would be very, very difficult. Attempting to make up the deficiency through weight of numbers isn't going to be particularly effective either. In that light, what would be the most suitable method by which to make up the deficiency?
1) Don't need it, the lack of MW/TK is flavorful and not much of a hinderence;
2) Aircraft-delivered tankbuster, precision orbital strike, or similar other Naval assistance;
3) Melta/Multimelta upgrade, adding 15cm: MW5+ and FF MW capability
4) Demolition Charges, adding a CC: EA(+1) MW capability
5) Some sort of totally nasty Plasma charge, adding CC: EA(+1) MWTK, One Shot
6) Specialized demolitions team, 15cm: MW6+ TK, Slow Firing
I'm not sure what I think is the best option, but I'm currently leaning towards any of the even-numbered ones.
1) is out. that was my biggest concern aswell, although i was operating under the belief that we where using MM drop sentinels, which rather covers that weakness to an extent
2) here is a crazy thought. given that the 'spacecraft' options represent heavy aircraft overflight, how about you allow more than 1 in the list. (still no more than 1 a turn of course. or alternately, allow mutliple aircraft to be attached to the one overflight, so as to add pinpoint attacks. surely the big aircraft could mount deathstrikes or some TK warhead) with a low strategy rating, you're likely to get booted off one of the turns by the enemy, so you're not likely to be able to completely block their spacecraft
3) i'd rather see them on sentinels (and allow a sentinel upgrade) but yeah, that could work
4) give that to the commanders atleast, could work. i am looking at the cost for the basic unit and thinking "they could do with a little something extra" so thayt would probably cover it nicely
5) too much 1shot weapons already, best to leave that one alone
6) specialist engineers units could be a go. kinda like the kriegs have. alternately, have the master of the ordinance style observer character have a lance attack (either as an 'or' option, or as a replacement for the bassies, rely on the marauders to do the bombing)
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Ground-based AA: Is it necessary? It sure would be useful, but I'm not sure if it fits. I'd be leaning towards a single 30cm 5+ or 6+ AA shot maximum, allowing limited anti-air cover via either missile teams or possibly Interdiction Tarantula Sentries. The former would be an upgrade, the latter probably a 5-unit support formation with GravChutes.
if you leave the interception in, and the V-CAP rules, i dont think groundbased AA is really needed, but again, take a look at the bloody hand list over in the chaos section, i included rules for the sabre platform. they're rather drastically underpowered compared to a hydra formation, but they do ok...