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For Elysia! The Elysian Drop Troop Regiment v3.x

 Post subject: Re: For Elysia! The Elysian Drop Troop Regiment v3.x
PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 8:58 pm 
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Well i like to use special abilities because so their use is open for other armies rather than being exclusive to one particular unit/army.
For example Sacrifice could be used on the Tyranid Garygolye's AA-shot too.

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 Post subject: Re: For Elysia! The Elysian Drop Troop Regiment v3.x
PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 9:03 pm 
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BlackLegion wrote:
Well i like to use special abilities because so their use is open for other armies rather than being exclusive to one particular unit/army.
For example Sacrifice could be used on the Tyranid Garygolye's AA-shot too.


No, because they work differently, as they're only removed if they hit, not just if they shoot.


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 Post subject: Re: For Elysia! The Elysian Drop Troop Regiment v3.x
PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 9:29 pm 
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Evil and Chaos wrote:
My idea was that we could have one Plasmagun shot per every two units (15cm, AP5+/AT5+) just like how Steel Legion squads get one Autocannon shot per each two units.

Why not just have one per unit? The IG 1 gun for 2 stands is super annoying and I don't see why it was introduced.


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 Post subject: Re: For Elysia! The Elysian Drop Troop Regiment v3.x
PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 9:37 pm 
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Angel_of_Caliban wrote:
Evil and Chaos wrote:
My idea was that we could have one Plasmagun shot per every two units (15cm, AP5+/AT5+) just like how Steel Legion squads get one Autocannon shot per each two units.

Why not just have one per unit? The IG 1 gun for 2 stands is super annoying and I don't see why it was introduced.

It was introduced because IG squads are only allowed 1 autocannon per 10 men.

Same thing for Elysian Plasmaguns, they're allowed one Plasmagun per 10 men, so it makes sense to use the same rule.

Plus, it leaves the Storm Troopers as more obviously elite, getting double the number of shots at range (1 per base), and also FF4+ instead of FF5+.

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 Post subject: Re: For Elysia! The Elysian Drop Troop Regiment v3.x
PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 9:39 pm 
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Evil and Chaos wrote:
Angel_of_Caliban wrote:
Evil and Chaos wrote:
My idea was that we could have one Plasmagun shot per every two units (15cm, AP5+/AT5+) just like how Steel Legion squads get one Autocannon shot per each two units.

Why not just have one per unit? The IG 1 gun for 2 stands is super annoying and I don't see why it was introduced.

It was introduced because IG squads are only allowed 1 autocannon per 10 men.

Same thing for Elysian Plasmaguns, they're allowed one Plasmagun per 10 men, so it makes sense to use the same rule.

Plus, it leaves the Storm Troopers as more obviously elite, getting double the number of shots at range (1 per base), and also FF4+ instead of FF5+.

Space Marines also get one Missile Launcher per 10 men also.....

I guess so...


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 Post subject: Re: For Elysia! The Elysian Drop Troop Regiment v3.x
PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 9:45 pm 
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Quote:
Space Marines also get one Missile Launcher per 10 men also.....

Most consider their Epic implementation to be an abstraction to represent how Marines are better at shooting than Guardsmen.

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 Post subject: Re: For Elysia! The Elysian Drop Troop Regiment v3.x
PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 9:47 pm 
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@zombocom: I know. Nevertheless they COULD use the same rule.

@AoC: I feel your pain. Anyway i rationalise it so that Space Marines are SO elite that they can fire more ccurate/often than mere humans that it results in doubling the shots.
This explanation only explodes in a tiny logic cloud if you realise that no other Space Marine unit has more shots than their number of weapons (by fluff) allows.

Anyway Space Mariens are special and the Imperial Guard Infantry takes precedence here. Ilike the idea of 1/2 Plasmagun shot per Drop Infantry unit.
Elysians are already somewhat elite so they should have better acess to more esoteric weaponry such as Plasmaguns.

@E&C: True. And having two kinds of Tactical units would use to much space in the datasheet section and seems to look unelegant.

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 Post subject: Re: For Elysia! The Elysian Drop Troop Regiment v3.x
PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 10:00 pm 
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BlackLegion wrote:
@zombocom: I know. Nevertheless they COULD use the same rule.


If you wanted to make gargoyles useless, sure. That rule would effectively get rid of their AA ability entirely, since who would ever sacrifice a unit on the off-chance of an AA6+ shot hitting?

It would also make no sense fluff-wise, as the idea is that they get killed by flying into the engines. If the shot misses, they shouldn't be killed.


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 Post subject: Re: For Elysia! The Elysian Drop Troop Regiment v3.x
PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 10:02 pm 
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Evil and Chaos wrote:
Quote:
Space Marines also get one Missile Launcher per 10 men also.....

Most consider their Epic implementation to be an abstraction to represent how Marines are better at shooting than Guardsmen.


Or just Jervis dropping the ball.


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 Post subject: Re: For Elysia! The Elysian Drop Troop Regiment v3.x
PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 11:47 pm 
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Question on fluff: why a plasma gun? Why not a heavy bolter per every 2 stands (AP5+ 45cm IIRC)? Seems like they are a more common choice. It also has the added benefit of already being modeled by Otterware.

Either way, the added weaponry IMO is a plus for two reasons. One is that it deals with the heavy suppression issues that the Elysians are prone to. The second is that it increases the cost of the core formation which makes the army less prone to popcorning. <-- Is this even a word?

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 Post subject: Re: For Elysia! The Elysian Drop Troop Regiment v3.x
PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 11:52 pm 
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Quote:
Question on fluff: why a plasma gun? Why not a heavy bolter per every 2 stands (AP5+ 45cm IIRC)? Seems like they are a more common choice. It also has the added benefit of already being modeled by Otterware.

Elysians aren't allowed Heavy Bolters in their basic infantry squads.

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 Post subject: Re: For Elysia! The Elysian Drop Troop Regiment v3.x
PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 12:03 am 
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Correct. No heavy weapons for basic Elysian Infantry Squads. They only get one Flamer, Meltagun, Plasmagun, or GrenadeLauncher per 10 men.

Elysian Heavy Weapon Squads (6 men forming 3 Weapon Teams) can take 3 MissileLaunchers, HeavyBolters and/or Mortars.

Elysian Special Weapon Squads (6 men) can take 3 Flamer, Meltaguns, Plasmaguns, GrenadeLaunchers, SniperRifles and/or DemolitionCharges.

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 Post subject: Re: For Elysia! The Elysian Drop Troop Regiment v3.x
PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 12:59 am 
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Y'know, the Space Marine thing could just be an abstraction to minimize finickiness, instead...

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 Post subject: Re: For Elysia! The Elysian Drop Troop Regiment v3.x
PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 3:56 am 
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Simulated Knave wrote:
Y'know, the Space Marine thing could just be an abstraction to minimize finickiness, instead...


Possibly, but if so you have to ask yourself why he then chose to go the finickity route with the guard.

Anyway, his explanation is that at the time Epic A was written, marine squads could be 5-10 men, with a heavy weapon, and at the time 5 man squads with a heavy weapon were the most common form. That has since changed, but epic hasn't kept up.


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 Post subject: Re: For Elysia! The Elysian Drop Troop Regiment v3.x
PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 7:34 am 
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Actually, that's simple - Marines have a heavy weapon plus other stuff in a Tactical Squad and are mighty tough in general, so they count as having two heavy weapons. They're basically 'rounded up', if you will. Guard have only the heavy weapon, so they don't get any additional improvement.

It's not a perfect solution, but miles better than "half can shoot one thing and half can shoot another". But of course, I'm very much opposed to mixing multiple weapon types within units.

I've never understood why he went with reflecting tabletop practice over background in the first place, but that's me.

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