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Krieg
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=74&t=17560		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Fri Jan 01, 2010 2:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Krieg
So, here's the new year!

Should we now call the Krieg finished, or should we test for 1 more month?


=====

EpicUK have expressed interest in using the list in their tournaments, so I had considered delaying the conclusion of the testing period until they had evaluated it, but since they have said they won't get to evaluating it for at least eight months, including an EpicUK version of the Krieg list in the printed version of Siege won't be possible, unfortunately (unless EpicUK decide to evaluate the Krieg list at a much sooner date).

Which is a pity, because only a few minor changes are required by my eye to make it EpicUK-compatible, (a different reference sheet in the back of the book would suffice), but I will have to leave out the EpicUK page I guess, as there's no point in printing it including the EpicUK stats if they later ask for more modifications to the list.


======

So, please only vote if you play with or against Krieg.
Author:  BlackLegion [ Fri Jan 01, 2010 2:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Krieg
Hard to judge. My first game i can manage with the DKoK will be in April at the german turney. And only if i can manage to collect and paint the neccessary models until then.  :down:
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Fri Jan 01, 2010 3:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Krieg
Quote: 

Hard to judge.

Being as you have played zero games with them, you cannot judge at all. :)
Author:  BlackLegion [ Fri Jan 01, 2010 3:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Krieg
I can judge from the battlereports. But to say that there are a few DKoK battlereports is an understatement  :grinning:
Well at east more than Red Corsairs  :grin:
Author:  BlackLegion [ Fri Jan 01, 2010 4:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Krieg
Uhmm when did the Leman Russ Demolisher and Thunderer got Slow-firing instead of Ignore Cover?
And HeavyMortar/QuadLauncher have Move 5cm and no save?
There are Manticore Platforms in the ref sheet but DKoK can't field them(rightly so)
Bombard still has the old Chimera-chassis based stats.
Author:  mnb [ Fri Jan 01, 2010 5:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Krieg
i've only played the krieg list a few times and that was a long time ago, so i won't vote. but as far as epicuk goes, couldn't you do a review at the same time they are doing there's. this way both sides could discuss and impliment changes
Author:  Honda [ Fri Jan 01, 2010 5:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Krieg
I voted for another month, based on a couple of things:

1. I think you've done an excellent job of crafting a list that differentiates itself from other IG lists, but retains all the Krieg flavor I would expect. I do not see any "obvious" builds that seem to be guaranteed imbalances, so kudos on the list construction.

2. I think the list is balanced within itself, though it is a bit difficult for me to get various builds out of it. To date, I have been taking an "Asaura" type of build, i.e. formations geared towards a heavy defense of the Krieg side of the board.

This may just be me, because I think the Krieg as I understand it from the Vraks books, should be heavy in infantry companies, artillery, and then a few other formations as seasoning (e.g. Grenadiers, Engineers, Death Riders).

To date, it has been a bit of a struggle for me to get more than one of the latter formations in because I've felt that I've needed lots of the former. So that could just be a "me" thing vs. an issue with the list. If I was going to change one thing, I would move the Artillery company to Core to facilitate that capability, but that is just a personal preference. I don't know if it is necessary yet or not.

After having seen how GlynB builds his Krieg, I will attempt a couple of his style of lists (more mobile, less artillery) and see how that goes.

3. I think it will help get a better feel for the list with more testing.

4. I have not taken any titans yet, preferring to go pure Krieg. I also have not tested the Macharius variants, though they don't seem to be way off. A formation with the Vanquisher turret for the commander seems the obvious build, so I don't know when you'd take the VMB turret except as an upgrade to infantry companies. Don't know about the viability of that approach though.

5. My personal opinion is that it is very close to final.
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Fri Jan 01, 2010 7:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Krieg
Quote: (BlackLegion @ Jan. 01 2010, 15:46 )

Uhmm when did the Leman Russ Demolisher and Thunderer got Slow-firing instead of Ignore Cover?
And HeavyMortar/QuadLauncher have Move 5cm and no save?
There are Manticore Platforms in the ref sheet but DKoK can't field them(rightly so)

There are some typos in the reference sheet. :)
Quote: 

Bombard still has the old Chimera-chassis based stats.

With a total of 2 reported playtest games using the upgraded stats, I'm hesitant to officially adopt them into the list, especially at what could be the last moment.
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Fri Jan 01, 2010 7:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Krieg
Quote: (mnb @ Jan. 01 2010, 16:00 )

i've only played the krieg list a few times and that was a long time ago, so i won't vote. but as far as epicuk goes, couldn't you do a review at the same time they are doing there's. this way both sides could discuss and impliment changes

It's not a matter of compromise, it's a matter of EpicUK testing my list and telling me what they'd like to change (in stats or points cost). Being as they won't even begin testing the Krieg list for 6-8 months, and the testing period itself will last 3-4 months, I cannot see the EpicUK version of the Krieg list being included in the printed copy of Siege.
Author:  BlackLegion [ Fri Jan 01, 2010 7:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Krieg
Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ Jan. 01 2010, 19:25 )

[quote="BlackLegion,Jan. 01 2010, 15:46 "]Uhmm when did the Leman Russ Demolisher and
Quote: 

Bombard still has the old Chimera-chassis based stats.

With a total of 2 reported playtest games using the upgraded stats, I'm hesitant to officially adopt them into the list, especially at what could be the last moment.

I would really like to see them included :) If this would delay the print for another month so be it.
Author:  Legion 4 [ Fri Jan 01, 2010 7:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Krieg
I'd say another month ... if for no other reason then I need some time to save up for the Siege book !!  :laugh:  :cool:
Author:  asaura [ Mon Jan 04, 2010 11:08 am ]
Post subject:  Krieg
Quote: (Honda @ Jan. 01 2010, 16:14 )

1. I think you've done an excellent job of crafting a list that differentiates itself from other IG lists, but retains all the Krieg flavor I would expect. I do not see any "obvious" builds that seem to be guaranteed imbalances, so kudos on the list construction.

2. I think the list is balanced within itself, though it is a bit difficult for me to get various builds out of it. To date, I have been taking an "Asaura" type of build, i.e. formations geared towards a heavy defense of the Krieg side of the board.

*blushes*  :;):

I have just built a few SH companies, which I look forward to trying out. In particular, I believe the Stormsword company (9BP Ignore Cover for 500 pts) to be absolutely brutal. This goes hand to hand with what Honda wrote about Titans. I've yet to use slow Kriegers plus fast Warhounds, which looks like an obvious list build archetype.

Before posting, I voted for one more month. However, a month won't change any big things any more. I say we call it done. We've already  :laugh: demonstrated that the thing
- is very interesting and characterful,
- inspires modellers and painters,
- is quite playable as in "easy to build useful lists with",
- not broken in too-obvious ways.
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Mon Jan 04, 2010 2:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Krieg
I'm going to provisionally call it done, and will print as soon as Raiders 2.0 is ready.

Unless playtesting in (to use a football term) "extra time" shows imbalances.
Author:  Honda [ Mon Jan 04, 2010 3:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Krieg
Fair enough, I can support that decision. I'd still like to get the Artillery Co. in the core listing, but understand if you don't want to go there.
Author:  GlynG [ Mon Jan 04, 2010 5:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Krieg
It would be great to see the supplement in print :) Generally I think the list is excellent :agree:

I'll be sad if the proposed Bombard stats get cut because of lack of time to test them; they seem fine to me and I think other options in the list are more competitive than their expensive proposed 350 points cost anyway - ok they average 1.5 long range ignore cover barrages a turn, but they're just 3 strong, lack any other guns and are quite easy to kill/break - 2 Basilisk platforms formations are likely better generally. Why not give them a go in a last minute game yourself E&C or anyone? If anything glaring does come up in time it can always be tweaked in a one year review but if it's not in there it won't get tested. Nice to represent things properly where we can (my friend who I played recently wasn't generally familiar with Krieg but he commented he was pleased to see proper war engine style stats to do the Marauder justice).

Hope you're still going to include suggested house rules for people to include sponsonless Russes for a little cheaper like you mentioned you would before? I'm fine with these not making the main list but would like it if they could be mentioned like that if possible.

Are you still wanting unit / Otterware photos? Could try and paint something up in the next week or few if you like?

I hadn't noticed the possibility to take a superheavy tank company, will have to try a Stormsword company out. Multiple individual ones with Commissars in could be another good option too, you could throw them forward should they break (to just outside 30 if possible) and if they rally they'd clear all their blast markers.
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