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Ragorie Gravborne
Jeridian
 Post subject: Ragorie Gravborne
PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2009 12:46 pm 
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Now I'm not looking to get this list to the heady heights of 'officialdom', or as a widely distributed, thoroughly tested list like the great works done here.

But I would greatly appreciate the minds of Epic players with more experience and knowledge to find any faults, see if they find it interesting, write the notorious 'popcorn' lists, try to break it, etc. as, althought it is homegrown for home use, everyone likes to have a balanced product.


Theme

The Ragorie Gravborne make extensive use of Grav-chutes and engine-less landing craft. They are most often employed to capture important objectives behind the enemy front line (such as bridges, depots, road junctions) just prior to a general advance by conventional Imperial Guard forces. In this way they can seriously hamper enemy reinforcements, resupply and withdrawal as the enemy front line troops are subjected to a ferocious advance.

If your thinking WW2 Paratroopers, your not far wrong.

New Special Rules

I tried to keep them to a minimum. The Commissar rule is gone, instead you pay for them.

Gravdrop- Once per turn. Treated exactly as a Spacecraft (declare turn, plot Planetfalls, etc) with the exemption it can arrive even if a 'real' Spacecraft (friend or foe) is arriving that turn. May 'carry' up to 3 Ragorie Gravdrop Companies and any upgrades they have. Any unit carried in this way has Planetfall for the game.
When deploying Planetfall formations- one unit is placed and scattered as normal, then the rest of the formation must be both within 5cm of any other unit (coherency) and 15cm of the first unit.


New Units

Again, kept to a minimum. Unless stated, all the normal IG units are present.

Ragorie Gravhawk- An engine-less lander, a glider- big, resilient and blunt much like the Guard.

Type: Aircraft, Bomber
Speed: 0cm
Armour: 5+ Reinforced Armour
FF: 6
CC: 6
Weapons- Heavy bolter, 30cm, AP5+/AA6.
Transport- Four infantry.
Notes- Cannot take-off once landed. Does not cause Blast Markers if destroyed due to being out of coherency.

Ragorie Sappers (name pending)- Ragorie's assault and explosives experts, tasked with demolitions, sabotage and in desperation tank hunting.

Type: Infantry
Speed: 15cm
Armour: None
FF: 5+
CC: 6
Weapons- Demo Charge, 15cm, MW3+, One-shot, Ignore Cover



Ragorie Gravborne Army List

Ragorie Gravborne armies have a strategy rating of 2, and all Ragorie Gravborne and Imperial Navy formations have an initiative rating of 2+.

Ragorie Gravborne Companies
Formation    Units    Upgrades Allowed    Cost

Gravborne Company    1xCaptain. 12xGravborne Infantry.    Upgrade: Commissar, Regimental Command, Infantry Platoon, Snipers, Ogryns, Fire Support, Sappers    250pts

Gravhawk Company    1xCaptain. 12xGravborne Infantry. 4xGravhawk.    Upgrade: Commissar, Regimental Command, Infantry Platoon, Snipers, Ogryns, Fire Support, Sappers, Gravhawk    400pts

Ragorie Gravborne Support Formations
(One may be taken per Ragorie Gravborne Company)
Formation    Units    Upgrades Allowed    Cost

Storm Trooper Platoon    8xStorm Troopers. 4xValkyries.    Upgrade: Commissar.    350pts

Vulture Squadron    4xVultures.    -    300pts

Sentinel Squadron    4xSentinel.    -    100pts

Flak Battery    3xHydra.    -    150pts

Artillery Battery    3xBasilisk/Manticore/Bombard. Three of same type.    -
   250pts

Orbital Support    1xImperial Navy Lunar Cruiser    Upgrade: Emperor Battleship    150pts

Ragorie Gravborne Attached Formations
(One may be taken per three Ragorie Gravborne Company)
Formation    Units    Upgrades Allowed    Cost

Mechanised Company    1xCaptain. 12xGravborne Infantry. 7xChimera.    Upgrade: Commissar, Mechanised Platoon, Hydra, Hellhound, Griffon, Leman Russ    400pts

Tank Company    10xLeman Russ.    Upgrade: Commissar, Vanquisher, Hydra    650pts

Super-Heavy
Tank Company    2xBaneblade or Shadowsword    Upgrade: Commissar, Super-Heavy    400pts

Ragorie Gravborne Upgrades
Upgrade    Units    Cost

Commissar    Add one Commissar to formation.    +25pts

Regimental Command    Replace Captain with Colonel.    +100pts

Infantry Platoon    Add six Gravborne Infantry to formation.    +100pts

Snipers    Add two Snipers to formation.    +50pts

Ogryns    Add two Ogryns to formation.    +50pts

Fire Support    Add four Fire Support to formation.    +100pts

Sappers    Add four Sappers to formation.    +75pts

Gravhawk    Add the minimum number of Gravhawks required to transport formation.    +100pts each

Emperor Battleship    Replace Lunar Cruiser with Emperor Battleship.    +150pts

Mechanised Platoon    Add six Gravborne Infantry and three Chimeras to formation.     +175pts

Hydra    Add one Hydra to formation.    +50pts

Hellhound    Add three Hellhounds to formation.    +150pts

Griffon    Add three Griffons to formation.    +100pts

Leman Russ    Add three Leman Russ or Leman Russ Demolishers to formation.    +200pts

Vanquisher    Replace one Leman Russ with a Leman Russ Vanquisher.    +25pts

Super-Heavy    Add one Baneblade or Shadowsword to formation.    +200pts

Imperial Navy Aircraft
(Up to 1/3rd of points available may be spent on Imperial Navy formations)
Formation    Units    Upgrades Allowed    Cost

Thunderbolt Squadron    2xThunderbolt Fighters.    -    100pts

Thunderbolt Wing    5xThunderbolt Fighters.    -    250pts

Marauder Squadron    2xMarauder Bombers.    -    200pts

Marauder Wing    5xMarauder Bombers.    -    500pts

Titan Legion Battlegroups
(Up to 1/3rd of points available may be spent on Titan Legion Battlegroups.
Also each selection counts as an Attached Formation for restriction purposes)
Formation    Units    Upgrades Allowed    Cost

Warlord    1xWarlord Titan.    -    900pts

Reaver    1xReaver Titan.    -    700pts

Warhound    1-2 Warhound Titans    -    300pts each


Should probably add before confusion reigns- Gravborne Infantry are just Imperial Guardsmen, a Captain is Commander, Colonel is Supreme Commander.
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Irondeath
 Post subject: Ragorie Gravborne
PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2009 3:41 pm 
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First glance (and I should be packing minis instead):

Interesting concept! However, I´d avoid allowing Titans like the plague, they really should have no place in an air-insertion themed list, and no, the slight price increase does not change that.

I see you lowered costs for air formations: This is the place where I´d go all popcorn, and the "wings" might very likely prove decidedly undercosted. I´d generally steer clear of encouraging certain formations via pricing, if a unit/formation is worth a certain number of points then it should cost that much, find another way to encourage their use.

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Jeridian
 Post subject: Ragorie Gravborne
PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2009 6:39 pm 
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Interesting concept! However, I´d avoid allowing Titans like the plague, they really should have no place in an air-insertion themed list, and no, the slight price increase does not change that.


The same could be said of the Marine Air Assault list, lists with Drop Pods or Planetfall, etc. I've penalised Titans with a pts hike and with them counting towards your Attached Formations (the only source of Tank Companies, Shadowswords, etc), but I didn't want to remove them completely as they are an integral part of the Epic Armageddon game. All my opponents pack in at least one Titan.

I see you lowered costs for air formations: This is the place where I´d go all popcorn, and the "wings" might very likely prove decidedly undercosted. I´d generally steer clear of encouraging certain formations via pricing, if a unit/formation is worth a certain number of points then it should cost that much, find another way to encourage their use.


It is a danger, and I actively encourage you, when you get time, to 'break' the list with Aircraft Popcorn lists and Titan spaff.

For my part, a Gravborne list is sorely lacking in heavy guns and AA compared to the Steel Legion (standard) list, they must turn to Air Support for this. And Air Support have massive downsides that Tank Companies and Shadowswords do not- namely that they can never claim, contest or deny objectives, and the enemy get's 'free shots' at them all the time.

I've seen Thunderbolts taken and they may be worth 150pts rather than 100pts, but Marauders? Has anyone consistently taken them in an IG list? They are overpriced, underpowered and highly fragile in the standard list IMO.

That said a blanket cost for a formation regardless of what list it is in is a little short-sighted, a Thunderhawk in a Marine list is worth X, a Thunderhawk in a Guard list would be worth a whole lot more, and vice versa with IG Artillery in a Marine list, etc.
The pts cost is integral to the Tournament Army List not the specific unit, so needs to reflect and consider the whole Army List it is in.

This probably explains why Warhounds should probably be a bit more expensive for Marines, as they are so much more valuable in that army.

Thanks for the feedback, and I hope yourself and others will spend a few minutes working out an example list, or a popcorn, or simply a filthy list and explaining their plan with it.
I'd enjoy it if people tried the list out, but I know time is premium so won't push it.

On an aside, I've been working on designs for the Gravhawk, hard to describe without pics- essentially it's a blocky eagle shape, the sharp triangle Imperial Aquila being broad wings, the cockpit having a slight downwards 'beak'. A heavy bolter cupola just before the tail wing. Access hatches to side and rear like the Valkyrie, probably around 40mm wingspan, 50-60mm length.

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Honda
 Post subject: Ragorie Gravborne
PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2009 6:55 pm 
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Jeridian,

I will look at the nuts and bolts closer, but when you said WW Paratrooper and then I saw Gravhawk (cool name btw), I immediately made a jump to historical formations like the British Paraglider force.

If that was your intention, then you might want to consider scaling the armor bits back and possible borrowing some of the Siege artillery units with something like Centaur tractors to haul them around or give them a minimal movement rate (e.g. 10 cm).

If you took that approach, then it would clean up some of the other issues that Irondeath brought up.

Also, back in the SM2 version of Epic, there was an IG lander that basically you stuck on the table, then rolled something like 3D6 dice to equal the number of cms that it would slide in a straight line while landing. If it hit impassable terrain, then bad things would happen.

Anyway, that mechanism could be used to update the Gravhawks movement and give you something a little more distinctive for your list. Also, with a lighter form of glider (THOUGHT: maybe you should consider having a light version for infantry, small vehicles, a bigger version for heavier stuff), they could be cheaper and help you get more of your fragile infantry on the ground.

Anyway, if I were going to counsel you, I think you have a good start, I would propose sticking closer to the historical model and also design in some weaknesses, like those experienced with the historical model.

Oddly enough, costs aren't always the best way to induce limitations.

Good luck and I'll be looking at this thread deeper in a bit.

Cheers,

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Jeridian
 Post subject: Ragorie Gravborne
PostPosted: Sat Mar 14, 2009 12:45 am 
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I will look at the nuts and bolts closer, but when you said WW Paratrooper and then I saw Gravhawk (cool name btw), I immediately made a jump to historical formations like the British Paraglider force.


It didn't start out that way, it was a generic Drop Troop list, then after seeing the Elysian list I tried to steer it in a different direction for style's sake.
The more I consider the WW2 airborne troop direction the more I like it.

Yep, the Gravhawk Companies are essentially Glider Companies. The Gravborne Companies are the parachute companies.

If that was your intention, then you might want to consider scaling the armor bits back and possible borrowing some of the Siege artillery units with something like Centaur tractors to haul them around or give them a minimal movement rate (e.g. 10 cm).


I've hopefully scaled it back quite a bit, in the standard list you can get a Tank Company or Shadowswords without penalty, you could theoretically make entire armies out of them. In this list you need at least 3 Gravborne Companies for 1.

I did consider a Mortar upgrade:

Indirect 30cm. BP 1/2* Guardsmen stats. Much like Guardsmen autocannons, you count up the Mortar units in range and half the number (rounding up), to give the Barrage BP amount.

I also agree that paratroop forces would use Thudd Guns and other 'light' artillery in place of Mechanised Artillery, I was tempted to have a Thudd Gun Battery formation of Light Vehicle guns.

But I didn't want to overload my regular opponents and the idea with a sea of new units and special rules, the KISS principle applies.

It would be cool to add them in place of normal Guard equivalents and to convert models...

Also, back in the SM2 version of Epic, there was an IG lander that basically you stuck on the table, then rolled something like 3D6 dice to equal the number of cms that it would slide in a straight line while landing. If it hit impassable terrain, then bad things would happen.

Anyway, that mechanism could be used to update the Gravhawks movement and give you something a little more distinctive for your list. Also, with a lighter form of glider (THOUGHT: maybe you should consider having a light version for infantry, small vehicles, a bigger version for heavier stuff), they could be cheaper and help you get more of your fragile infantry on the ground.


That sounds really cool, and forces the player to be cautious when making the landing, it also makes Air Assaults are more tricky prospect.
Not sure what people feel about throwing more Special Rules in though, KISS again.

As for the number, having say 2 unit transports, means I have double the models, double the size bonus and suppression bonus (as they will bulk the formation out). I like the Gravhawk as this Shadowsword sized lumbering bird, you can blast away at it tearing big holes, but it will just keep falling slowly from the sky. If one does get a wing ripped off that 20 soldiers lost.

I think their tough enough if you don't fly headfirst into a Hydra battery, but the gamble can be high, and the loss great if they hit heavy flak- exactly like Gliders.

Anyway, if I were going to counsel you, I think you have a good start, I would propose sticking closer to the historical model and also design in some weaknesses, like those experienced with the historical model.


Please elaborate.

I'm thinking of adding a rule that Planetfall'ed companies roll D6-1 for Blast Markers on landing, representing the confusion and reorganisation paratroops must do on the ground, and in-game, making an immediate Engagement not so much a no brainer.

Maybe get silly and allow Flak in range to have a 'free shot' on the formation as it lands.

Oddly enough, costs aren't always the best way to induce limitations

True, but they have an affect.

I have been looking at the Aircraft as suggested. I may increase the price of the Squadrons back to original (at least for the Thunderbolt) but keep the Wings as is, at a discount.
So the 'popcorn' option of multiple Squadrons isn't as cost efficient as a few Wings instead.
The Marauder pts drop is as much simply my opinion that they are overpriced at present, as it is to encourage them in this style of play (in much the same way I've charged a small pts cost for the Fearless, Inspiring, Leader, Macro-weapon weilding Commissars).

Thanks again, and hopefully I'll wrangle some unfortunate into playing against my list soon.

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Jeridian
 Post subject: Ragorie Gravborne
PostPosted: Sat Mar 14, 2009 2:51 am 
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How's this look?

I've gone off the deep end with Mortar, Thudd Guns, etc, and put much heavier restrictions on Armour, and limited Aircraft.

Ragorie Gravborne

Theme

The Ragorie Gravborne make extensive use of Grav-chutes and engine-less landing craft. They are most often employed to capture important objectives behind the enemy front line (such as bridges, depots, road junctions) just prior to a general advance by conventional Imperial Guard forces. In this way they can seriously hamper enemy reinforcements, resupply and withdrawal as the enemy front line troops are subjected to a ferocious advance.

If your thinking WW2 Paratroopers, your not far wrong.

New Special Rules

I tried to keep them to a minimum. The Commissar rule is gone, instead you pay for them.

Gravdrop- Once per turn. Treated exactly as a Spacecraft (declare turn, plot Planetfalls, etc) with the exemption it can arrive even if a 'real' Spacecraft (friend or foe) is arriving that turn. May 'carry' one Ragorie Gravborne Company and any upgrades they have. Any unit carried in this way has Planetfall for the game.
When deploying Planetfall formations- one unit is placed and scattered as normal, then the rest of the formation must be both within 5cm of any other unit (coherency) and 15cm of the first unit.
Recieves D6-1 Blast Markers.


New Units

Again, kept to a minimum. Unless stated, all the normal IG units are present.

Ragorie Gravhawk- An engine-less lander, a glider- big, resilient and blunt much like the Guard.

Type: Aircraft, Bomber
Speed: 0cm
Armour: 5+ Reinforced Armour
FF: 6
CC: 6
Weapons- Heavy bolter, 30cm, AP5+/AA6.
Transport- Four infantry.
Notes- Cannot take-off once landed. Does not cause Blast Markers if destroyed due to being out of coherency.

Ragorie Sabotuers- Ragorie's assault and explosives experts, tasked with demolitions, sabotage and in desperation tank hunting.

Type: Infantry
Speed: 15cm
Armour: None
FF: 6
CC: 5+
Weapons- Demo Charge, 15cm, MW3+, One-shot, Ignore Cover

Ragorie Mortar Squad- Bring your own artillery.

Type: Infantry
Speed: 15cm
Armour: None
FF: 5+
CC: 6
Weapons- Mortars, 30cm, 1/2 BP, Indirect Fire. Like Infantry autocannons, i.e count up how many can shoot enemy, divide by two (rounding up) that is the number of Barrage Points.

Ragorie Thudd Guns- The heaviest guns deployable by grav-chute.

Type: Infantry
Speed: 10cm
Armour: None
FF: 5+
CC: 6
Weapons- 2xThudd Gun, 60cm, AP 5+/AT 5+.
Notes: Mounted.

Ragorie Gravborne Army List

Ragorie Gravborne armies have a strategy rating of 2, and all Ragorie Gravborne and Imperial Navy formations have an initiative rating of 2+.

Ragorie Gravborne Companies
Formation    Units    Upgrades Allowed    Cost

Gravborne Company    1xCaptain. 12xGravborne Infantry.    Upgrade: Commissar, Regimental Command, Infantry Platoon, Snipers, Ogryns, Fire Support, Sappers, Mortar    250pts

Gravhawk Company    1xCaptain. 12xGravborne Infantry. 4xGravhawk.    Upgrade: Commissar, Regimental Command, Infantry Platoon, Snipers, Ogryns, Fire Support, Sappers, Mortar, Gravhawk    400pts

Ragorie Gravborne Support Formations
(One may be taken per Ragorie Gravborne/Gravhawk Company)
Formation    Units    Upgrades Allowed    Cost

Storm Trooper Platoon    8xStorm Troopers.     Upgrade: Commissar, Valkyrie or Gravhawk.    200pts

Vulture Squadron    4xVultures.    -    300pts

Sentinel Squadron    4xSentinel.    -    100pts

Thudd Gun Battery    6xThudd Guns.   -   250pts

Orbital Support    1xImperial Navy Lunar Cruiser    Upgrade: Emperor Battleship    150pts

Ragorie Gravborne Attached Formations
(One may be taken per five Ragorie Gravborne/Gravhawk Company)
Formation    Units    Upgrades Allowed    Cost

Mechanised Company    1xCaptain. 12xGravborne Infantry. 7xChimera.    Upgrade: Commissar, Mechanised Platoon, Hydra, Hellhound, Griffon, Leman Russ    400pts

Tank Company    10xLeman Russ.    Upgrade: Commissar, Vanquisher, Hydra    650pts

Super-Heavy
Tank Company    2xBaneblade or Shadowsword    Upgrade: Commissar, Super-Heavy    400pts

Artillery Company   9xBasilisk/Manticore.   Upgrade: Commissar, Hydra.    650pts

Ragorie Gravborne Upgrades
Upgrade    Units    Cost

Commissar    Add one Commissar to formation.    +25pts

Regimental Command    Replace Captain with Colonel.    +100pts

Infantry Platoon    Add six Gravborne Infantry to formation.    +100pts

Snipers    Add two Snipers to formation.    +50pts

Ogryns    Add two Ogryns to formation.    +50pts

Fire Support    Add four Fire Support to formation.    +100pts

Mortar    Add four Mortar squads to formation.  +100pts

Sappers    Add four Sappers to formation.    +75pts

Gravhawk    Add the minimum number of Gravhawks required to transport formation.    +100pts each

Valkyrie   Add four Valkyries to formation.   +150pts

Emperor Battleship    Replace Lunar Cruiser with Emperor Battleship.    +150pts

Mechanised Platoon    Add six Gravborne Infantry and three Chimeras to formation.     +175pts

Hydra    Add one Hydra to formation.    +50pts

Hellhound    Add three Hellhounds to formation.    +150pts

Griffon    Add three Griffons to formation.    +100pts

Leman Russ    Add three Leman Russ or Leman Russ Demolishers to formation.    +200pts

Vanquisher    Replace one Leman Russ with a Leman Russ Vanquisher.    +25pts

Super-Heavy    Add one Baneblade or Shadowsword to formation.    +200pts

Imperial Navy Aircraft
(Up to 1/3rd of points available may be spent on Imperial Navy formations)
Formation    Units    Upgrades Allowed    Cost

Thunderbolt Squadron    2xThunderbolt Fighters.    -    150pts

Thunderbolt Wing    5xThunderbolt Fighters.    -    300pts

Marauder Squadron    2xMarauder Bombers.    -    250pts

Marauder Wing    5xMarauder Bombers.    -    500pts

Titan Legion Battlegroups
(Up to 1/3rd of points available may be spent on Titan Legion Battlegroups.
Also each selection counts as an Attached Formation for restriction purposes)
Formation    Units    Upgrades Allowed    Cost

Warlord    1xWarlord Titan.    -    900pts

Reaver    1xReaver Titan.    -    700pts

Warhound    1-2 Warhound Titans    -    300pts each
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Jeridian
 Post subject: Ragorie Gravborne
PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 4:11 pm 
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Some Work In Progress.


Thudd Gun



Mortar Squad
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