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| Update Elysians List http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=74&t=13309 |
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| Author: | Honda [ Fri Aug 15, 2008 2:21 am ] |
| Post subject: | Update Elysians List |
ELYSIAN DROP TROOP ARMY LIST - v2.1.3  (Last Rev:080808) ELYSIAN SPECIAL RULES DROP TROOPS The Elysians are airmobile specialists, trading the hard hitting armored assets of a Steel Legion for skimming transports, known as the Valkyrie. The Valkyrie troop transport allows the Elysians to assault the enemy quickly over great distances or jump out of the Valkyrie at height, floating down to the ground on their grav-chutes. As a result, all Elysian units may be transported in Valkyries or may use the Teleport special ability. DEMO CHARGES Although the basic Elysian trooper is armed in a similar fashion as all Imperial Guard infantry, due to the close in nature of an Elysian assault and the requirements for high mobility, each Drop Troop unit is equipped with demolition charges. This charge allows the Elysian troops to engage hard targets like armor and fortifications. The effect of the demolition charge is reflected in the units' CC values. IRON DISCIPLINE The Elysian Drop Troopers are led by superb officers, veterans of many battles and trained to lead from the front. To represent Iron Discipline, all Elysian units (does not include Imperial Navy) require +1 BM to break a unit and they do not incur a -1 while rallying if an enemy is within 30cm.. NO GARRISON The Elysians are widely recognized as highly capable, elite formations. For this reason, the Elysians are retained by a commander for the proper moment to either take the initiative or steal the initiative from the enemy.This means that the Elysians effectiveness is never diluted by engaging in non-essential tasks. Therefore the Elysians may not garrison any of their forces. ELYSIAN DROP TROOP ARMY LIST Elysian armies have a strategy rating of 2. All Elysian formations have an inititiative value of 2+. ELYSIAN DROP TROOP COMPANIES - Any amount of points may be spent on Drop Troop Companies. They are independent formations. Formation Type/Units/Cost * Regimental HQ/1 Supreme Commander, 7 Drop Troops. May have 4 Valkyrie Troop Carriers for +160 points./275 points * Drop Troop Company/1 Commander, 7 Drop Troops. May have 4 Valkyrie Troop Carriers for +160 points./200 points ELYSIAN DROP TROOP SUPPORT COMPANIES - Up to 2 Companies may be taken per Company. They are independent formations. Formation Type/Units/Cost * Vulture Squadron/4 Vultures/300 points * Drop Sentinel Squadron/4 Drop Sentinels. May have 4 Valkyrie Troop Carriers for +160/125 points * Support Sentinel Squadron/4 Support Sentinels. May have 4 Valkyrie Troop Carriers for +160/125 points * Storm Trooper Company/8 Storm Trooper teams, 4 Valkyrie transports/350 points DROP TROOP COMPANY UPGRADES - Up to three may be taken for each Drop Troop Company. Upgrades are not separate formations but are added to the original formation and are counted as part of it in all respects. Each upgrade can only be taken once per formation. Upgrade Type/Units/Cost * Hardened Veterans/A Drop Troop company may have 0-2 Hardened Veterans/+25 points each * Fire Support Platoon/A Drop Troop company may select 2 Fire Support units/+50 points * Mortar Platoon/A Drop Troop company may select 0-2 Mortar units as an upgrade/+25 points each * Infantry Platoon/A Drop Troop company may select 4 Infantry units/+100 points ELYSIAN AIR UNITS - Up to one third of the Elysian army's points may be spent on aerospace formations. They are independent formations. Formation Type/Units/Cost Lunar Cruiser/1  Lunar Cruiser/150 points Emperor Battleship/1 Emperor Class Battleship/300 points Lightning/2 Lightning Fighters. Upgrade to Strike Fighter variant +40/150 points Marauder Destroyer/2 Marauder Destroyers/375 points Units Please refer to v2.1.2 for unit information http://www.epic40k.co.uk/images/Elysians-V2-1-2.pdf |
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| Author: | nealhunt [ Fri Aug 15, 2008 1:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Update Elysians List |
Editorial: Demo Packs is really a "design concept" note and has no special rule effect. The "No Garrison" is a GT-specific rule rather than a general army special rule. You might want to note them as such. |
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| Author: | BlackLegion [ Fri Aug 15, 2008 1:45 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Update Elysians List |
So you can only use the extra troops from the upgrade if you don't buy Valkyries for the company? |
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| Author: | Honda [ Fri Aug 15, 2008 3:10 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Update Elysians List |
So you can only use the extra troops from the upgrade if you don't buy Valkyries for the company? Realistically, yes. I suppose that you could take the airmobile option and then add non-airmobile assets. However, the side effect of that choice would be an airmobile formation that moves as fast as walking infantry. I could actually see taking a formation like this, to do "interesting" things in your own backfield. So the question is, leave as is and give players the option OR specifically state that it is not possible. One way to look at it, would be a ground formation with dedicated (though limited) air support. Editorial: Demo Packs is really a "design concept" note and has no special rule effect. The "No Garrison" is a GT-specific rule rather than a general army special rule. You might want to note them as such. @Neal: So you feel that the demo charge is unnecessary? I'm Ok, with deleting it. I added it as more of a "FYI" because there was such a huge discussion originally about the FF values, what to do about demo charges etc. I suppose the best way to handle it is in the notes section. As far as the "No Garrison" rule goes, it is not intended to be a GT specific rule. It is intended to be a list specific rule. In general play, people should not garrison with the Elysians. Do you foresee that causing a conflict? Thanx for the feedback. |
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| Author: | nealhunt [ Fri Aug 15, 2008 3:44 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Update Elysians List |
Honda: I think including the note about the demo charges is a good thing as an explanatory item. It's just not a special rule. It's included in the stat line and doesn't change any mechanics. As far as the garrison, the term (as far as the game is concerned) is from the GT rules. I'm not sure how it would apply to other scenarios. Even if they use "garrison" terminology, there can be all sorts of deployment rules that might not actually be flexible if the scenario is going to work. |
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| Author: | scarik [ Fri Aug 15, 2008 6:56 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Update Elysians List |
I'm against the 160 points for 4 Valkyries. Especially since it Makes Standard Drop Troops cost more than Stormtroopers, which are already a better unit in nearly every regard. Drop Troops have a Leader/Commander STs have: better FF, an armor save, Scouts, and a Shooting attack. Also this makes Elysians pay more for Valkyries than other IG who get 4 for 150. Also, since they can't Garrison anymore how about making their Strategy Rating reflect their supposedly Elite Status. If they're held in reserve due to their lightning quick reaction time I think they should actually have quick reactions. Also the Droop Troops special rule needs a clarification. The way it is written means that Valkyries can Teleport, since they can't be transported in other Valkyries, they must fall under second clause. |
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| Author: | Evil and Chaos [ Fri Aug 15, 2008 7:27 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Update Elysians List |
I still think that using the variant aircraft is basically gratuitous ; You've yet to justify (To me at least) why the Elysians should have access to the variant Imperial Navy aircraft. |
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| Author: | The_Real_Chris [ Fri Aug 15, 2008 10:23 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Update Elysians List |
E and C the aircraft should reflect the campain thearte the list is designed for. You say there is no reason to include. Equally I feel there is no reason not to include. |
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| Author: | scarik [ Sat Aug 16, 2008 12:58 am ] |
| Post subject: | Update Elysians List |
On Aircraft I should point out that Honda has clearly stated the reason that they are there is incompatible with his reasons since Lightnings are the primary space superiority fighter and he's not going for space assets as primary in the list. He just felt like putting them there. There's no good reason for it, actually all the reasons are bad. Including the fact that Thunderbolts are better. I'm gonna go make more noise about Imperial Navy craft now. 
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| Author: | Honda [ Sat Aug 16, 2008 1:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Update Elysians List |
On Aircraft I should point out that Honda has clearly stated the reason that they are there is incompatible with his reasons since Lightnings are the primary space superiority fighter and he's not going for space assets as primary in the list. This statement doesn't make any sense. The Lightnings are there because I wanted them to be. Lightnings have nothing to do with "space" superiority. If you use the references in Dan Abnett's "Double Eagle" book (which is quite good), he very clearly states something along the lines that the Lightning is a better air superiority, whereas the Thunderbolt is more rugged and a better all rounder. All of this has nothing to do with the "playability" of the list. We're discussing likes and dislikes. He just felt like putting them there. There's no good reason for it, actually all the reasons are bad. Yes, and again, I'm not expecting everyone to agree with what I did. I stated my reasoning, whether you think it's good or bad doesn't matter unless it effects the playability of the list. I'm against the 160 points for 4 Valkyries. You have stated your opinion and I responded as to why we were going to test them at this point value for the time being. Your point is noted and the issue is logged. Especially since it Makes Standard Drop Troops cost more than Stormtroopers, which are already a better unit in nearly every regard. Drop Troops have a Leader/Commander STs have: better FF, an armor save, Scouts, and a Shooting attack. Agree, but we are no longer comparing apples to apples as they no longer occupy the same slot on the list. In fact, ST's cost more because you can't get one without also getting at least one DTC. Also, since they can't Garrison anymore how about making their Strategy Rating reflect their supposedly Elite Status. If they're held in reserve due to their lightning quick reaction time I think they should actually have quick reactions. This is something that can be looked at later on. Right now, we need to focus on the relative costs and effectivenes of units and formations. Also the Droop Troops special rule needs a clarification. The way it is written means that Valkyries can Teleport, since they can't be transported in other Valkyries, they must fall under second clause. Very good. I will correct that. Thank you for catching the bad sentence structure. Cheers, |
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| Author: | scarik [ Sat Aug 16, 2008 9:05 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Update Elysians List |
Lightnings have nothing to do with "space" superiority. Ah, but they do, in Battlefleet Gothic the superiority fighter is the Lightning and the Bomber is the Marauder Destroyer. Now this isn't a fluff distinction since Navy is Navy and they can bring whichever planes they want in theory, but in practice, ie lists, its the unit most likely to be there that shows up. And using the BFG planes automatically conflates the list with BFG whether that's desirable or not. However I don't mind much since there is no real benefit to using Lightnings and Destroyers over their common counterparts since both planes in the Elysian list are tank hunters, something the list has no trouble doing without them. They would benefit immensely from the added AP of Thunderbolts and Marauder Bombers, and they'd lose none of the AA. On that note, I'll be trying this army next against Orks. 275 Regimental HQ 600 3x Drop Company 300 Drop Company with Platoon 325 Drop Company with Platoon and 1 Vet 1500 12x Drop Sentinels 3000points, 18 Teleporting activations Should be able to get 2 or 3 games in since I won't have anything on table at game start and will wait til Turn 3 to arrive on game one, maybe vary it up to see how it plays out. I suspect there will be lots of Overwatch but Orks will fail often enough that I'm not too worried. |
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| Author: | The_Real_Chris [ Sun Aug 17, 2008 2:31 am ] |
| Post subject: | Update Elysians List |
No in the Gothic sector they use Starhawk bombers (massive, carrying ship killer missiles) and fury interceptors (2 man heavy fighter). All in the BFG blue book, availible from the SG site. Thunderbolts, lightnings and marauders are deployed as necessary when increased aerospace power is needed, but they are less than ideal (I believe normally launching from escort class carriers and other similar fleet support vessels). As mentioned in various bits of fluff. As to rational Gothic class space ships, and tank hunting air support, seems to make perfect sense for an insertion or beach head force as they should be short of such gear, normally tank carried as it is. Saying that yes, the bomber barrage would also be needed,so maybe the Destroyer is a bit to far, lightnings for tank hunting/interception and bombers for barrages. |
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| Author: | scarik [ Sun Aug 17, 2008 6:47 am ] |
| Post subject: | Update Elysians List |
I stand corrected. Nevertheless, I'm mainly involved with the Elysians as Devil's Advocate and because I have the models so I want to help where I can. Hence all the really weird lists I come up with. 
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| Author: | BlackLegion [ Sun Aug 17, 2008 11:24 am ] |
| Post subject: | Update Elysians List |
Only Thunderbolts and Marauders are space caplable. The Lightning is a pure atomspheric aircraft if i remember IA correctly. |
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| Author: | scarik [ Sun Aug 17, 2008 10:31 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Update Elysians List |
Brief synopsis of my Pop-corn Elysians: Orkside objectives placed close together Guard objectives as far apart as I could manage with terrain intervening to prevent LOF between them. The Orks deployed in a long line with a Uge warband garrissoned forward. The Elysians were all teleporting. Turn 1 saw the Orks maneuvering cautiously around to avoid getting picked off. Turn 2 saw them spread out into two hard knots, one around the anchoring warband, the rest forward to go for my Blitz. A few units went on OW, a Big Blitz with Oddboys among them. The Garrisoning troops stayed on OW. Things were about to get bloody. Turn 3 my whole army teleported except for 2 units of Sentinels which were saved to claim objectives since I expected the battles to be brutal. They were. My teleports went off mostly well, one unit of Sentinels got 3 BMs, two Sentinels got 0, the small Drop Company got 3 BMs. The Orks won the Strategy Roll and sent a non-OW blitz on double to crossfire me. They broke the small DC. They retained, looking to lower my huge activation advantage (16-9) and they air assaulted into one of the Drop Companies. A bold gambit, it was a basic warband with 2 extra boyz so it easily outnumbered me and I had BMs and they didnt. The orks shattered the DC, the return attacks did nothing but my supporting fire killed 5. 4 of them Grots, ouch. The Company died to hackdown and all the supported got another BM, one sentinel broke. It wasn't looking good. I responded by Sustaining into the blitz that moved into me. They didnt break though. I didn't retain. The orks sent Fight-bommas in to break another Sentinel formation. I went again and here it gets blurry, one of my assaults stalled due to OW, but the others succeeded and pushed the green tide back. Once they were out of overwatch the Greenskins decided to wash back over me. The Uge Warband still held the center and gave supporting fire to a charging stompa mob. We held, barely. All objectives were contested on the Ork half, IG half one was unfoughtover. no BTS, no They Shall Not, nothing, 0-0. Most things rallied, one sentinel formation didnt so I sent it toward my objectives to perhaps block some terrain with their bodies, but they played no role in the last turn. |
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