Tactical Command
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The Elysians Project
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=74&t=13072		 Page 1 of 5
Author:  Honda [ Tue Jul 15, 2008 12:26 am ]
Post subject:  The Elysians Project
Ok, as promised, this is the start of some background information to get the team all on the same page. In looking at some of the recent threads on the current list, there are quite a few "Why did he do that?" comments out there. Fair enough, at the time I was finished with the current list, I was also working with SG to get the following article posted in their online mag.

Let's just say that the Goths conquered Rome before that could happen. So, below I have an article that I wrote that was intended to introduce the Elysians to a greater audience.

So without further ado...

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The Elysian Drop Troop Army List


The Elysian Drop Troops are renowned throughout the galaxy and are counted among the Imperial Guards most elite formations. Specializing in airmobile operations, the Elysians are the masters of high maneuver and vertical envelopment. The Elysians seem to appear out of nowhere, quickly striking at key objectives in the support of a larger operation, or sowing confusion and disrupting enemy lines of communication.

Unlike other foot-borne forces, the Elysians provide a player an unparalleled degree of mobility and the ability to focus at a selected point of attack. The hit-and-run nature of their combat doctrine makes them extremely difficult to defend against as an opposing general is never really sure where they will strike.

One of the side benefits of using Elysian forces in any campaign is the psychological effects they have on enemy planning. It is extremely common to observe in after action reports (AARs), enemy command staff decision paralysis when faced with the possibility of Elysian troops deploying “in theatreâ€Â
Author:  Honda [ Tue Jul 15, 2008 12:56 am ]
Post subject:  The Elysians Project
Battle Report using a circa 2.0 list

I think what should be drawn from this report is the fragility of the Elysian units and how that impacts your list in later turns. The Saim Hann list has been revamped since then, but still features lots of mobile, hard hitting core troops that are difficult for the Elysians to deal with.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Battle Report – Elysians vs. Biel Tan


Ok, it was almost like an Inaugural ball, except that the music was better. To the strains of Wagner’s “Ride of the Valkyriesâ€Â
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Tue Jul 15, 2008 8:35 am ]
Post subject:  The Elysians Project
I think I've been saying this for years ; I strongly disagree with the weapon armament you've given to the Veterans.

In 40k, you give Hardened Veterans Meltaguns, every time. They are the tank hunters of the Elysian list, dropping into unexpected areas and melting the enemy's tanks... Multi-Melta Sentinels just have too few shots with too low a ballistic skill to be relied upon as tank hunters, whilst Veterens will kill their target every single time.

Sniper Rifles are given to Special Weapons Squads, where the lack of enhanced accuracy isn't so much of an issue.

So yeah, I suggest splitting 'Veterans' into 'Veterans' and 'Snipers', each with a different role.
Author:  Tiny-Tim [ Tue Jul 15, 2008 12:21 pm ]
Post subject:  The Elysians Project
Thanks for bringing us up to date with your thoughts Honda
Author:  Moscovian [ Tue Jul 15, 2008 12:23 pm ]
Post subject:  The Elysians Project
Honda,

Will you be keeping the the Elysian list compatible with the Imperial Guard changes (the ranges on the Vulture seem to be the only thing that came up that would matter here)?
Author:  Honda [ Tue Jul 15, 2008 1:51 pm ]
Post subject:  The Elysians Project
I think I've been saying this for years ; I strongly disagree with the weapon armament you've given to the Veterans.

In 40k, you give Hardened Veterans Meltaguns, every time. They are the tank hunters of the Elysian list, dropping into unexpected areas and melting the enemy's tanks... Multi-Melta Sentinels just have too few shots with too low a ballistic skill to be relied upon as tank hunters, whilst Veterens will kill their target every single time.

Sniper Rifles are given to Special Weapons Squads, where the lack of enhanced accuracy isn't so much of an issue.

So yeah, I suggest splitting 'Veterans' into 'Veterans' and 'Snipers', each with a different role.

I didn't say that everyone was going to agree with the decisions that I made. What I posted was the logic behind the decisions. You don't have to agree with it. You don't even have to like it. That wasn't the point of posting. I acknowledge that you have a different perspective.

I also don't deny some of your your points regarding the 40K version of the Elysian list. That is exactly how I play my vets as well. On special weapons, we have a difference of opinion. I think when 5th Ed comes out and we see some of the changes to the rules, people are going to re-think snipers. Regardless, I am presenting a holistic approach to the list based on how I interpreted the available material.

As an aside, current 40K IG thought points towards a removal of the Vets as an Elite choice and making them an upgrade to standard troops. The Storm Troopers will remain an Elite choice. In light of that, I am more inclined to keep this separation of "roles" as is. If playtesting evidence points to a play balance issue then we'll work that out to a reasonable solution.

As far as splitting the vets into "vets" and "snipers", that is far too fiddly and more of a 40K perspective than Epic. Each formation was assigned a specific role. That is one of the keys to understanding this list.

Again, not saying that is how you would have done it, but it is the way I did.

Will you be keeping the the Elysian list compatible with the Imperial Guard changes (the ranges on the Vulture seem to be the only thing that came up that would matter here)?

Yes, that will be part of the upgrade to the list to get it to a playable form. I'll also probably change the Commissar rule as it was a fluff thing that I built into the list based on a story that I was writing. In hindsight, there really doesn't need to an enforced restriction, it can be handled in the fluff. Another refinement will be a reduction in the Lightning fighters. At the time it seemed to make sense to segregate the types, but I think what I'm going to do is have one fighter slot and then provide for an upgrade to the formation that will give it the strike package. Also, since it seems that two aircraft are the standard flight, I'll reduce the formation size.

It would help if someone who is familiar with all the changes to the IG list could summarize those points...or point to a thread where that has been done.

Cheers,
Author:  Moscovian [ Tue Jul 15, 2008 5:28 pm ]
Post subject:  The Elysians Project
I don't know if these are all of them but its everything I believe will affect Elysians.

Bombers. Going to 250 in the other Imperial lists.
Commissars special rule.
Vulture missiles become 90cm.

Just let us know what the stats are you want us playing with so we're all on the same page.  If you need help with the pdf file let me know and I'll assist.
Author:  Honda [ Tue Jul 15, 2008 6:10 pm ]
Post subject:  The Elysians Project
@Moscovian

Will do. Also, I have another battle report that I can post either tonight or tomorrow.

Cheers,
Author:  scarik [ Tue Jul 15, 2008 7:25 pm ]
Post subject:  The Elysians Project
I do like a confident autocrat.

But I feel no need to ask his permission to use the changes every other IG army is already agreeing to, I'll simply use those when I get a chance to test these guys if only because I'm only going to remember one set of stats for each unit.  :;):

Mosc, you forgot Maruaders going to 3BP, which while it might not be directly effecting the Elysians it should certainly influence the stats of the Marauder variant they have.

I can't comment on the list though since I can't find it.  :oops:
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Tue Jul 15, 2008 8:10 pm ]
Post subject:  The Elysians Project
Quote: (Honda @ 15 Jul. 2008, 13:51 )

As an aside, current 40K IG thought points towards a removal of the Vets as an Elite choice and making them an upgrade to standard troops. The Storm Troopers will remain an Elite choice. In light of that, I am more inclined to keep this separation of "roles" as is. If playtesting evidence points to a play balance issue then we'll work that out to a reasonable solution.

FW have no intention to reprint their IA:III when the new IG codex comes out.

The Elysian list will remain as-is, regardless of any changes that may occur in the Cadian (GW IG Codex) list.

As far as splitting the vets into "vets" and "snipers", that is far too fiddly and more of a 40K perspective than Epic. Each formation was assigned a specific role. That is one of the keys to understanding this list.

I strongly disagree, and most probably always will.

Another refinement will be a reduction in the Lightning fighters. At the time it seemed to make sense to segregate the types, but I think what I'm going to do is have one fighter slot and then provide for an upgrade to the formation that will give it the strike package. Also, since it seems that two aircraft are the standard flight, I'll reduce the formation size.


Honestly I can't work out why you've used the variant aircraft in this list, for anything other than gratuitous reasons.

Sorry to be blunt, but I simply don't see the need to use the variant aircraft here.
Author:  BlackLegion [ Tue Jul 15, 2008 8:22 pm ]
Post subject:  The Elysians Project
@E&C: Well there should be an army list which can use Lightnings and Marauder Destroyers. Why not start with the Elysians?

Have you such a dislike against Lightnings/Marauder Destroyers? I remember you stopped giving comments on the Armageddon Steel Legion PDF the moment you realised i put in these variant aircrafts instead of the regular ones, too.

So what tips you off about them?
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Tue Jul 15, 2008 8:42 pm ]
Post subject:  The Elysians Project
So what tips you off about them?

It's exactly the same dislike I have about how this edition of Epic doesn't allow for different configurations of Titan being fielded with Imperial armies.

As far as I'm concerned, variant aircraft would be better-served by having them in an 'aircraft suppliment', which would give rules for all the new aircraft (Destroyer, Colossus, Lightning, etc) and points costs for using them with a variety of armies.

I don't see why some armies should get the variant aircraft, and some don't... when according the background lots more aircraft types should be available for most armies.

So in summation, just like the 'standard configuration titans', I don't see the need to give variant aircraft to some lists and not to others... either (almost*) every list should get access to new aircraft types, or none should.

I also like WYSIWYG, and don't want to have to buy Marauder Destroyers (Or whatever) to use with a new army list, just because the designer decided (Without saying why) that a whole bunch of variant aircraft would be funky to use.




* Siegemasters should probably stick to 'low-tech' aircraft only, for example.
Author:  BlackLegion [ Tue Jul 15, 2008 8:48 pm ]
Post subject:  The Elysians Project
Reply here
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/forums....y264955
Author:  Honda [ Wed Jul 16, 2008 4:35 am ]
Post subject:  The Elysians Project
Sorry to be blunt, but I simply don't see the need to use the variant aircraft here.

I can be blunt as well. I liked the models and wanted them in my list. I also asked around, including members of the then existing ERC and the response was, if you aren't outrageous in your design, then there's no reason not to.

I also like WYSIWYG, and don't want to have to buy Marauder Destroyers (Or whatever) to use with a new army list, just because the designer decided (Without saying why) that a whole bunch of variant aircraft would be funky to use.

Ok, you've expressed a personal preference. Nobody is forcing you to buy new aircraft. In a game system where "counts as" plays such a heavy role, no one is ever forced to buy something they don't want. You are the one placing that constraint on yourself.

Now, you've been very clear that you aren't very happy with the list and that it goes in directions that you wouldn't have chosen on your own. I acknowledge that you have a different idea on the list, but what we are really down to is philosophical differences.

I've laid out why I did what I did, so that some clarity over the decisions would be available. If I haven't explained a decision yet, please do ask I will make a reasonable effort to explain my logic. I did put a fair amount of thought into my decisions.

What I want to know is whether you will be willing to put aside your feelings and participate in the project. I think your perspective can add value. However, as stated earlier, this isn't going to be a project driven by opinions or feelings. It's going to focus on play testing.

If you are willing to accept that we may not look at things the same way, but will work toward a common goal, then we'd like to have you be part of the team. If you don't think you can work under those conditions, then this project may not be what you are looking for.

I do like a confident autocrat.

Well, actually for most of my project work, I'm more of a benevolent dictator. However, I do get things done in difficult situations.

But I feel no need to ask his permission to use the changes every other IG army is already agreeing to, I'll simply use those when I get a chance to test these guys if only because I'm only going to remember one set of stats for each unit.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by the above.

I can't comment on the list though since I can't find it.

Ok, I'm not exactly sure where it is either, so Moscovian and I will work to get a copy posted as quickly as we can. This won't be an updated copy just yet, but at least it will be the most current version.

Cheers,
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