Tactical Command
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The Changes
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=74&t=12224		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Fri Apr 04, 2008 12:16 pm ]
Post subject:  The Changes
So, what is the current consensus for change Guard wise?

Note I favour as few changes as possible. Also these are for the Steel legion list as presented in the Rulebook, sub lists are encouraged to be imaginative!

They can be split into two groups (with of course sub-divisions), changes to the unit stats and changes to the list.

Changes to the list

Currently extremely few. The most popular are
Commissars - stop being random, instead become 1 per 500 points
Snipers - become add 1-2 units, 25 points each

Others that I feel have merit are
Allow the artillery company to take Bombards
Drop the cost of Orbital support by 25 points (Lunar) and 50 points (Emperor) (because Guard orbital support is extremely poor with no drop vehicles to make use of).

Finally their is the thorny problem of Sentinels. Change the pattern name or match the model to the stats?

For allies definitively make the change to Marauders.
Warhound wise is the change needed? I haven't seen Guard players rely on it like Marines do, is it a problem?

Stat wise the concensus seems to be for

Deathstrikes - lose 'no LoS' and gain indirect
Baneblade - Make it Mars pattern and upgun to match the GW/FW 40k/Epic models. A 3+/3+ main gun, autocannon, demolisher cannon, 2 x lascannon, 3 x twin heavy bolters.
Roughriders - lose extra attack (though I do think this is too much of a downgrade and they might need to come down by 25 points)

Contested changes
Vulture
Yes it has a long ranged 2+ weapon, but it also costs more than a Leman Russ at 75 points each. A formation of 4 get on average 6-7 hits with their missiles, then are somewhat undergunned. A change to 90cm range I don't see making much difference as with a move of 35cm it can hit the enemy deployment zone turn one anyway without any modifiers. The change to skimmer means you can now hide from it, the biggest problem with it I think now is as a scout it can garrison on overwatch.
To date yes it is a popular tournie choice, but I've never seen more than one formation used.

Sentinels. Change the pattern name or match the model to the stats?

Then what are essentially cosmetic changes
Steel legion infantry - missile launchers

Annoying stuff
The Demolishers plasma cannons are slow fire. I think that's wrong at this scale. Losing slow fire and becoming 5+/5+ I think would be better.

Forgotten changes
Hellhound. I think its fine, especially as heavier armour for the mechanised regiments. I haven't seen a problem with it in play and it still remains more popular than Griffons!
Artillery. The Basilisk, Manticore and Bombard have different roles. Currently the one with the edge in an 'average' army is the Manticore but I don't think its enough to change anything.

And finally - the Demolisher cannon. Really in the Guard army it is fine as it is. If it increases in power as part of some grand Imperial consensus the Demolisher would have to come down in power somewhat, maybe a drop in FF or go non WYSIWYG and have heavy bolter instead of plasma?


In total 2 definite changes to the army list (commissars and snipers) and 3 unit changes (Roughriders, Deathstrikes, Baneblades).
Then other potential changes are two for the list (arty company composition and spaceship costs) and 4 for the units (cosmetic change infantry, vulture changes?, plasma cannon, sentinels).
Finally the one thing currently in limbo is the Demolisher cannon.
Author:  Irondeath [ Fri Apr 04, 2008 1:23 pm ]
Post subject:  The Changes

(The_Real_Chris @ Apr. 04 2008,13:16)
QUOTE


Contested changes
Vulture
Yes it has a long ranged 2+ weapon, but it also costs more than a Leman Russ at 75 points each. A formation of 4 get on average 6-7 hits with their missiles, then are somewhat undergunned. A change to 90cm range I don't see making much difference as with a move of 35cm it can hit the enemy deployment zone turn one anyway without any modifiers. The change to skimmer means you can now hide from it, the biggest problem with it I think now is as a scout it can garrison on overwatch.
To date yes it is a popular tournie choice, but I've never seen more than one formation used.



My regular IG opponent uses two formations most of the time, only in scenario play I see fewer Vultures.

There was a large majority in favor of a downgrade quite recently, see:

http://www.tacticalwargames.net/cgi-bin....t=10651

A change to 90cm would make a major difference IMO, especially with regards to overwatch.

The thread I linked has a great deal of discussion on the matter already.

Edit: Regarding the other issues

Commissars - definitely

Snipers - no need, rarely seen though

Artillery company Bombards - okay

Orbital support - not a problem of the units but rather of the list having better, on-board options.

Sentinels - multi laser is an okay generic weapon, don?t change

Marauders - 3BP / 250 points

Warhound - again IG has better options, only way to see them more often is underpricing

Deathstrikes - must change, likely still to cheap with IDF

Baneblade - ok with Mars pattern suggestion above

Roughriders - ok as well

Vulture - 90cm

Demolishers plasma cannons - can?t tell

Hellhound - working stats, don?t change

Demolisher cannon - can?t tell.
Author:  nealhunt [ Fri Apr 04, 2008 2:05 pm ]
Post subject:  The Changes
Commissars - okay, but not absolutely necessary
Snipers - leave as-is
Artillery company Bombards - leave as-is
Drop the cost of Orbital support - maybe.  I can't judge this.
Sentinels - leave as-is
Marauders - point cost change
Warhound - leave as-is
Deathstrikes - yes, definitely
Baneblade - okay
Roughriders - okay
Vulture - start with very conservative changes
Demolishers plasma cannons - leave as-is
Hellhound - leave as-is
Demolisher cannon - stick with the now-official non-MW ruling

===

This is all based on the idea that I think there should be minimalist changes to the core lists with more comprehensive overhauls precipitating new lists.
Author:  Dave [ Fri Apr 04, 2008 3:00 pm ]
Post subject:  The Changes
Commissars - yes, it scales better

Snipers - yes and no, yes if we want to have a 25 point filler

Sentinels - make it WYSIWYG or change the name to Mars pattern

Marauders and Warhound - point costs should be inline with Marine Lists

Deathstrikes - yes, remove no LOS and and add Indirect Fire

Baneblade - yes, WYSIWYG please

Roughriders - yes, no point cost change though I have get there points back with them at 150

Demolishers plasma cannons - Plasma Guns are 15cm 5+/5+ right? 30cm 5+/5+ would be acceptable

Hellhound - would like to see Ignore Cover added to FF

Demolisher cannon - 15cm MW4+ Ignore Cover :-P
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Fri Apr 04, 2008 3:29 pm ]
Post subject:  The Changes
Commissars - Yes. Although not nessesary it makes army list construction much easier, and is more
balanced as a fixed number.

Snipers - If you do 25pt snipers, you must do 25 Ogryns too.

Artillery company Bombards - I say yes, but am not especially fussed. I'd rather see the bombard range increased to 60cm or the armour save to 5+.

Drop the cost of Orbital support - yes. It's never used.

Sentinels - leave as-is. If a Steel Legion-specific army list is adopted (Rather than the rulebook 'steel legion' which is really a generic army list...), then the lascannon variant is a cert.

Marauders - personally I'm in favour of the french solution (2DC, 6+ armour, 3BP, WYSIWYG guns).

Warhound - leave as-is

Deathstrikes - yes. maybe even change the to-hit roll to 3+.

Baneblade - yes

Roughriders - yes. Possibly drop to 125pts while you're at it.

Vulture - I agree with neal, start small

Demolishers plasma cannons - leave as-is

Hellhound - leave as-is

Demolisher cannon - leave as-is




Griffons: Drop them to 75pts for three. 100pts is a joke.




Longer term:

Consider approving tournament-official stats for the two other super-heavy tanks?
Author:  Kleomenes [ Fri Apr 04, 2008 4:52 pm ]
Post subject:  The Changes
Commissars - Yes, but it will only vex me not make me cry if it doesn't change

Snipers - Yes, gives some flexibility and otherwise snipers are rarely used

Bombards - No, not needed

Orbital support - Yes, otherwise why bother with IG?

Sentinels - No changes, no need

Marauders - 3 BP change is needed

Warhound - Change for consistency with SM list. They are still underpriced in IG IMO

Deathstrikes - Yes.

Baneblade - Yes, very firmly

Roughriders - Yes, and maybe a yes to a points drop. But then will sentinels be useless?

Vulture - 90cm range as the big change for now. Its actually the only unit that after this round of changes I think should see any movement at all

Demolisher - No change

Hellhound - No change
Author:  Ginger [ Fri Apr 04, 2008 5:19 pm ]
Post subject:  The Changes
I agree with you and Neal that minimlist changes are the immediate way forward, though we all have slight variations. ?Perhaps it would be usefull to list the changes in descending priority order at some point so we can all see the nost important changes at the top of the list, and the least important at the bottom.

My preferences are

Commisars ? ? ? ? ? ? ?- Yes, change to 1 per 500
Snipers ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?- leave for now, but has merit
Bombards ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?- leave for now
Orbital ships ? ? ? ? ? ?- Leave for now, but has merit
Sentinals ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? - Leave for now
Marauders ? ? ? ? ? ? ? - Change if poss, but there are three options already!
Warhound ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?- Yes, re-price to 275 to bring in line
DeathStrikes ? ? ? ? ? ?- Yes, Become indirect and lose 'no LOS'
Baneblade ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?- Leave for now , but has merit
Rough Riders ? ? ? ? ? ?- yes, lose extra attack
Vultures ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?- Need fixing, but not right now
Steel Inf missiles ? ? ? - Leave it for now
Demolisher Plasma cannon - Leave it for now
Hellhound ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?- Leave it for now
Demolisher cannon ? ?- Yes, change to 'official' revised stats
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