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Death Korps of Kreig

 Post subject: Death Korps of Kreig
PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 10:29 pm 
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Have you guy splayed some with this?  I looked over E&C's list and I would be concerned about the balance of a few items.

Russ:  You can field what is effectively a "normal" Russ company but with 3 Vanquishers rather than 1 for the same price.

rough Riders:  I think a point discount is probably not in order for a large formation of these guys.  Their main drawback in formations of 6 is fragility if someone gets gunsights on them.  In a larger formation that is less of a factor.

Towed Artillery:  Just as a comparison, an arty battery in the Siege IG list is 150 points.  Manticore platforms with Trojans are 175.  The Manticore has longer range, a direct fire option, better armor, a CC value, and better FF.  The Trojan is twice as fast as the Brunhilde, has a CC value, better FF, and better firepower.  Basically, for 25 points difference, it's +1 on almost every single stat.  I'd probably say that Towed Arty + Transports should probably cost more than the self-propelled version because the extra units make it much more durable, especially against assaults.

Stormsword:  It may be better than the others.  It might be worth 200 points.  For a cross-list comparions, people complain about the Decimator in the BL list.  A company of Stormswords is 250 points cheaper than 3 Decis.  The firepower and assault are only marginally lower.  The Stormswords don't have Fearless and get the IG SR and Initiative but is that worth a 1/3 price difference?

Salamander:  25 points to add Leader and Commander, plus a fast runabout with good FF.  Why would anyone ever not take one as long as it wasn't the only vehicle in the formation.

Gorgons:  The formation of WEs with 10 Transport capacity might be an issue.  You can reference the Land Raiders-as-WE discussions for reasons why.  At 100 points with a 1-shot barrage, you could also field these things as pure assault beasts - Fire as you close, then support, support, support.  Is that a reasonable ability per the background?  I honestly have no idea.

Pinpoint Reaver:  Even without IDF, the thing packs the firepower of an arty company with vastly more durability and assault ability.  It might be too cheap with a 75 point discount.

Chimeras:  I think the heavy Bolter is a non-starter when compared to the other weapons.

Some niggling stuff...

Commander is listed as a Character but is a unit.

Commisar is a character but has unit type and move on the datafax.

The Support Squad and Thudd Guns - different names in list/unit description but seem to be the same unit.

Medusa needs to have a note regarding IDF because minimum range is 30cm.

=====

Potentially abusive combos I see:

Uber-Arty
2 DK infantry Co (Garrison in cover as heavy duty screen)
Medusa Co + Salamander
6 Arty Batteries w/ Trojans
9 formations, ~2100 points

Blitzkrieg Assault:
2 DK Tank Co - 10 conqueror, Salamander
1 Arty Battery (assault prep)
3 RR Platoons
6 Formations, ~2000 points - firepower to prep assaults, tons of RA/4+FF, and everything is fast (except the arty

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 Post subject: Death Korps of Kreig
PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 11:22 pm 
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Have you guy splayed some with this?


Now that's just scary!

Ahhh, *played*. :)

Getting in a playtest game tonight, one way or the other.

I looked over E&C's list and I would be concerned about the balance of a few items.

Then let me be the first to answer. :)

Russ:  You can field what is effectively a "normal" Russ company but with 3 Vanquishers rather than 1 for the same price.

Agreed that's an oddity, I'll have another poke through the points there.

rough Riders:  I think a point discount is probably not in order for a large formation of these guys.  Their main drawback in formations of 6 is fragility if someone gets gunsights on them.  In a larger formation that is less of a factor.

*Nods*

Worth looking into.

Towed Artillery:  Just as a comparison, an arty battery in the Siege IG list is 150 points.  Manticore platforms with Trojans are 175.  The Manticore has longer range, a direct fire option, better armor, a CC value, and better FF.  The Trojan is twice as fast as the Brunhilde, has a CC value, better FF, and better firepower.  Basically, for 25 points difference, it's +1 on almost every single stat.  I'd probably say that Towed Arty + Transports should probably cost more than the self-propelled version because the extra units make it much more durable, especially against assaults.

I've also been looking at the artillery and thinking they're underpriced.

Stormsword:  It may be better than the others.  It might be worth 200 points.  For a cross-list comparions, people complain about the Decimator in the BL list.  A company of Stormswords is 250 points cheaper than 3 Decis.  The firepower and assault are only marginally lower.  The Stormswords don't have Fearless and get the IG SR and Initiative but is that worth a 1/3 price difference?

You're right the StormSword is pretty brutal, a slight points increase for them can't be a baddity.

Alternatively, reducing their range to 30cm may actually be more inline with the background / 40k rules.

Salamander:  25 points to add Leader and Commander, plus a fast runabout with good FF.  Why would anyone ever not take one as long as it wasn't the only vehicle in the formation.

Because in most DK formations they *are* going to be the only vehicle in a formation. :)

Still, a nudge to 50 pts might not be out of the picture.

Gorgons:  The formation of WEs with 10 Transport capacity might be an issue.  You can reference the Land Raiders-as-WE discussions for reasons why.  At 100 points with a 1-shot barrage, you could also field these things as pure assault beasts - Fire as you close, then support, support, support.  Is that a reasonable ability per the background?  I honestly have no idea.

These Gorgons are 100% consistant with the FW background & rules. The only decision on my behalf was to set infantry formations at 20 units, because 10 was too small for the anachronistic Krieg.

Pinpoint Reaver:  Even without IDF, the thing packs the firepower of an arty company with vastly more durability and assault ability.  It might be too cheap with a 75 point discount.

While it might be due a nudge, I believe the pinpoint Reaver to be pretty balanced.

Chimeras:  I think the heavy Bolter is a non-starter when compared to the other weapons.

While it's not a non-starter, it is more limited in use than the other two choices. Still a viable selection under certain circumstances however I feel. 30cm AP4+ is not to be sniffed at.

Commander is listed as a Character but is a unit.

Commisar is a character but has unit type and move on the datafax.

The Support Squad and Thudd Guns - different names in list/unit description but seem to be the same unit.

Medusa needs to have a note regarding IDF because minimum range is 30cm.

All noted.

Thanks for your thoughts Chief. :)





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 Post subject: Death Korps of Kreig
PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 11:48 pm 
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Oh one thing worth noting on the Vanquishers is that Death Korps Vanquishers are the ForgeWorld version of the model, and thus do not have Sponson weapons.




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 Post subject: Death Korps of Kreig
PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 2:54 am 
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Hi, i think some very good points have been raised- the next step now is definately to playtest and see what falls out.  My next game will be a proxy death korp list, just havent had a game for a while.  Anyone else fancy playtesting?  *prods*  :)

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 Post subject: Death Korps of Kreig
PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 6:08 pm 
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Just FYI - I just got the F/W DKoK Decal sheet (after ordering it in May!). But there are a lot that are small enough to use for Epic ...  :;):

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 Post subject: Death Korps of Kreig
PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 8:35 pm 
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Stormsword

I've used these in the Minervans and they are exceedingly underwhelming with 30cm range on the Barrage. They are balanced fairly well at 45cm, competitive with the Baneblade and Stormblade with an obvious edge in AP but a loss in utility compared to the others.

Leman Russ Demolishers

I think the 4+ Slow-firing Plasma Cannons are actually more powerful than a standard Russ is. I like the Minervan 5+ no Slow a little better, one I don't need to track who fired, and 2, its less potent in the inevitable Double into Support/Crossfire followed by a next turn Demolisher Assault.

Thunderers

I have to admit I can't find a use for these, the obvious Thick-Rear Armor options just get them killed with no support since its madness to send them in alone. A Platoon of them at 280 Points just generally hasn't been worth it when I can pay full price for the much more powerful Demolisher when I want assault tanks.

Salamander Command

One the Steel Legion really needs these guys, there's almost no reason to play SL when Death Korps and Minervans are able to have 2 Leader armor formations. Though I don't actually see Salamanders on the list of upgrades so this seems moot. I suspect I missed their inclusion in this thread?

Errata/wording note:
The Minervans don't say anything about taking each upgrade once, the Death Korps says each Company may only take each upgrade once, but like the Minervans doesn't explicitly state that Support Formations can't be given the upgrades bought. The Steel Legion explicitly denies Upgrades being given to Support so is this an oversight or do you really want Macharius tanks to be able to Garrison?

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 Post subject: Death Korps of Kreig
PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 8:38 pm 
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This thread is truly ancient ; Could a mod lock this thread and any issues raised can be discussed in a (much) more recent thread.

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