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Baneblade
The stats below (with whatever concensus) 62%  62%  [ 18 ]
Other stats (suggest below) 38%  38%  [ 11 ]
Total votes : 29

Baneblade

 Post subject: Baneblade
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 11:13 pm 
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Super Heavy Tanks don't have the same armour value all around. So no TRA.

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 Post subject: Baneblade
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 1:35 am 
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I would go with Demolisher Cannon being MW. I think all the units with them at the moment are underpowered and it really fixes them

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 Post subject: Baneblade
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 6:40 am 
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(BlackLegion @ Jun. 05 2007,04:13)
QUOTE
Super Heavy Tanks don't have the same armour value all around. So no TRA.

Ah the joys of not playing 40k.

Perhaps Jervis should descend and repost his tra coment :)

As to the dc becoming mw - the baneblade is easily fixed, the demolisher is a great tank and the vindicator is fine with the proposed changes (egads, that tra thing again).

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 Post subject: Baneblade
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 9:14 am 
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NO TRA.

The Baneblade and its variants have been far more closely definied since Jervis said that TRA was an option.

The Super-Heavies definitively have the same armour values as each other, and they definitively have comparatively weaker rear armour values.

TRA cannot be justified these days, background-wise or rules-wise.

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 Post subject: Baneblade
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 6:19 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Jun. 05 2007,09:14)
QUOTE
NO TRA.

The Baneblade and its variants have been far more closely definied since Jervis said that TRA was an option.

The Super-Heavies definitively have the same armour values as each other, and they definitively have comparatively weaker rear armour values.

TRA cannot be justified these days, background-wise or rules-wise.

I guess the one exception would be the old Stormhammer. I know 100% for certain that that had same armour on rear as front/sides- I apologise if that was what was confusing me.

However the Srormhammer is the one SHT that is neither a current SG model or a FW model. If we cant rely on SG to produce more Epic then I guess we have to rely on FW and therefore we should probably prioritise rules for FW SHT's rather than OOP models like Stormhammer.

I do like the idea of Baneblade having TRA as it increases the difference between it and the Shadowsword, and makes the Baneblade a choice worth taking.

However if those people with W40K Codexes to hand state that in W40k that Baneblade has weaker rear armour (than front/sides) then I guess we have to listen to them because W40k must be right.....

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 Post subject: Baneblade
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 9:52 pm 
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While several people seem to want to add thick rear armor, there is nothing in background, WH40K, or previous editions of Epic to support doing that.  That, and I don't think adding TRA will enhance the effectiveness of the Baneblade enough to make it the equal of the Shadowsword.

I think we are running up against a logic fault here, and that is what has people stuck regarding what to do about the Baneblade.  Every suggestion runs up against one of these blocks:

1) Doesn't conform to the history/background of the Baneblade.
2) Doesn't conform to the prior use/rules of the Baneblade in Epic.
3) Doesn't conform to the WH40K rules of the Baneblade.
4) Doesn't conform to the perceived mission profile of the Baneblade.

So pretty much we have to agree on the least offensive upgrade(s) for the Baneblade to make it worth its points.

A lot of discussion, aside from little things like Thick Rear Armor, has focused upon the weapons of the Baneblade.  I feel that this is the best route to go because all of the other factors (CC, FF, Armor, etc.) are pretty much written in stone.  The only weapon that has any real chance to have any changes made to it without it affecting other vehicles, exceeding the number of weapons shown on the miniature, or offending WH40K is the main cannon.

Here is the problem: In WH40K, to make the Baneblade work in the game without it being obscene the turret cannon is listed as a rather anemic weapon.  But if the Baneblade is going to be the equal of the Shadowsword in Epic: Armageddon it will have to be significantly upgunned because, let us face the facts, the Volcano Cannon on the Shadowsword is a monster weapon.  Very long range, great to-hit probability, and it does TK damage.  If you think that the Demolisher Cannon, an autocannon, a couple of paltry lascannons and a couple of twin heavy bolters are going to narrow the gap then I suggest you re-think things.

We are going to have to SIGNIFICANTLY upgrade the battle cannon beyond what WH40K thinks it should be.

The Baneblade Cannon (let's just drop "battle" from the name) is going to have to be brought up in power to make it a lot closer to the Volcano Cannon than the original Battlecannon stats.  What can be done?

The Volcano Cannon has a 90cm range while the Battlecannon on the Baneblade has a 75cm range.  While I think that increasing the range would not be to much, there seems to be little support for that.

The Vocano Cannon has a 2+ to hit.  (Very Nice!)  It also does MW - TK(D3) damage.  (Very, Very Nice!)  While nobody wants to give the Baneblade Cannon TK damage, I think it is safe to say people might be willing to give the weapon MW ability.

One other thing about both weapons is that they both fire one shot per turn.  Nobody would be willing to let the Baneblade fire 2 or 3 times per turn.  But, there is another way to effectively give the Baneblade more than one shot per turn:

Make it a BP weapon.

What if we were to give the Baneblade Cannon something along these stats:

Baneblade Cannon
Range: 75cm
Firepower: 3BP
Notes: Macro Weapon

Notice that the weapon does not have Indirect Fire capability, so effectively it is lobbing a large high explosive shell.  Assuming the BP/MW rules revision goes through the to-hit number would be 4+.

What do you think?

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 Post subject: Baneblade
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 10:17 pm 
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What do you think?


Not my cup of tea.


I'd be willing to support better to-hit values for the Baneblade Cannon (AP3+/AT3+) or changing it to being a Macro-Weapon (MW4+), but it's not really a wide-area barrage weapon.


I have been testing the StormSword's Siege Cannon at BP3, MW, Ignores Cover for the Krieg armylist, but that's another story.

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 Post subject: Baneblade
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 10:31 pm 
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(Blarg D Impaler @ Jun. 05 2007,21:52)
QUOTE
Baneblade Cannon
Range: 75cm
Firepower: 3BP
Notes: Macro Weapon

A Baneblade Company would then be dropping 9BP of MW for 500 points... that, to me, is nutz!  *laugh*

Better to-hit value would be fine, but making it MW means it's going to be hitting a lot of Grots...

The Baneblade has a lot of guns, against a mixed formation, it can hit a lot more targets than a Shadowsword.  I think just a little "up-gunning" of the weapons would make it a respectable choice.

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 Post subject: Baneblade
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 10:36 pm 
Does anybody have a master list of what is MW, and what isn't?

Is MW-creep something to be wary of, or am I just easily spooked?


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 Post subject: Baneblade
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 11:19 pm 
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(Otterman @ Jun. 05 2007,22:36)
QUOTE
Does anybody have a master list of what is MW, and what isn't?

Is MW-creep something to be wary of, or am I just easily spooked?

To me, anything more powerful than a Vanquisher Cannon is a Macro-Weapon.

A Baneblade Cannon is really on the cusp, and personally I'd go with AT3+/AP3+, or maybe even AT2+/AP2+, but I wouldn't go with MW status.

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 Post subject: Baneblade
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 2:18 am 
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AT3+/At4+ sits just fine with me. The Baneblade has plenty of secondary weapons which sets it on par with the Shadowsword if the Baneblade Battle Cannon is upgraded to AP3+/At3+.

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 Post subject: Baneblade
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 4:44 am 
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AP3/AT3 Baneblade battle cannon, and all demolishers MW 4+.

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 Post subject: Baneblade
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 5:34 am 
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MW creep is indeed a problem (especially with new lists) and affects some armies (marines) more than others.

As to what we can and can't do
Baneblade Taccom (insert forgeworld) pattern, urban config etc
TRA, MW barrage, hamster assisted steering, etc.

Ta da, the wonders of a galactic viewpoint.

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