Elysian Drop Troop Army List |
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orangesm
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Post subject: Elysian Drop Troop Army List  Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 6:08 pm |
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Alright I have found a few 'problems'.
One weapon, one stat is one of the problems throughout the test list. Also some of the previous vehicles AA weapons do not seem to line up with fluff. Are Lascannons/Autocannons on an Aircraft not as capable as those carried by Tanks/Infantry?
The 'Long Autocannon' is not a longer range Autocannon it is a underpowered Autocannon at that. In the Epic Rulebook the Lighting Cannon is 75cm with the AP5+/AT6+/AA6+.
The Strike is an AA aircraft - but its AA missiles could be replaced with AT hellstrikes.
The Lascannons are twin-linked are on the Aircraft.
The Marauder Destroyer in the Epic Rulebook is based off the Marauder haul.
In the case of the Hydra it has standard Autocannons currently, when it is suppose to have more reach with its Autocannons than those carred by the IG infantry. The Eldar Firestorm has what look like Elongated Scatter Lasers, again 45cm range, 15 cm longer than the standard Scatter Laser, but it is more accurate than the Hydra. The Flakwagon is only 30cm, could be upped to 45cm, but lots of them can be taken.
The only AA that a 45cm range outdistances is the Ork Flak Wagon.
At the moment remember that AA gets to go before the Aircraft does its action. This makes trying to work around a few AA vehicles difficult. It also may keep the Aircrafts most capable weapons out of range (if Bombs & Missiles are limited to 15cm and 30cm).
Second issue - the rules for minis and what mini is the standard.
The Thunderbolt in the Rulebook is based off of the traditional mini.
StormBolters, Multilaser, & Underwing Rockets
The new Thunderbolt (FW) has 2 Twin-linked Autocannons, 1 twin-linked Lascannon, and can carry hellstrikes (max of 4) or bombs (1/3 of that of a Marauder).
So the FW model is a little hard hitting in my opinion.
Twin Lascannon (from Marauder) is 45cm AT4+/AA4+
Twin Autocannons (from Vulture) is 45cm AP4+/AT5+(/AA5+)
4xHellstrikes (from Thunderbolt) is 30cm AT4+
So it becomes a question of what model becomes the standard (in the case of the Thunderbolt) or what rules are the standard for single models, currently the Marauder Destroyer has 3 different rules for it.
Aircraft need to be viable and Air Defenses need to be accurately designed.
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Honda
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Post subject: Elysian Drop Troop Army List Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 6:10 pm |
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Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:44 pm
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Location: Katy, Republic of Texas
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@Hena
This I think points out why these aircrafts shouldn't have 45cm range. T'bolt is definitely useless. However when put next to a plane with double or triple range, of course the other is better. This in an inherited problem which seems to cause the escalation of airpower. Next people want to add more range to AA and then back to planes ... this is not how it should be done.
Respectfully I must disagree. I acknowledge the fact that your preference is for aircraft attack ranges to equal flak ranges.
Now not every target as AA, so the range should not be a limiting factor when engaging targets. It's not as if the planes can't get to proper place for firing. Range is a direct modification to keep AA at bay. 45cm range means that you will outdistance a lot of AA. And that is wrong. So all in all most planes should have same ranges as AA. More over you've invented a new missile which is identical to t'bolts, but better. That kind of curve is usually not good... Many new lists has the problem of having something X, but better.
Again I must respectfully disagree.
I don't think you are considering the issue from a pilot's perspective. It is suicidal to fly into an attack before launching your own. That is why one of the most significant weapons development trends is payloads that do not require the carrying aircraft to risk AA attack. Every major nation fields these. It isn't so unconceivable that a weapon that is already acknowledged as having unlimited range possess a greater range than other weapons, especially if the survival of those air assets for repeat attacks is part of the attack plans' design.
The ranges as currently listed are not set in concrete at this time. However, I will remain firm about how they are stated until I see clear evidence that there is an unbalancing condition created by those values. To date, that has not been an issue because the cost of the capability has provided sufficient restraint.
I am willing to be convinced otherwise given sufficient playtest results.
Cheers,
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Honda
"Remember Taros? We do"
- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment
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Evil and Chaos
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Post subject: Elysian Drop Troop Army List Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 6:50 pm |
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Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire
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I'm not exactly sure who asked it, but there was a question about adding macro weapon attacks because of plasma guns.
No, it was Meltaguns.
Since that's the only thing anyone gives to Veterans Squads in 40k.
For Elysians they're even more useful (I never leave home without at least one squad, often two) due to their lack of armoured vehicles & heavy weapons.
Trust me, giving Veterans Sniper Rifles doesn't reflect how Elysian Veterans units are best used in 40k. You give Sniper rifles to sniper support squads... while the Veterans are left free to Infiltrate or Deep Strike (Teleport) and take out the enemy tanks with their Meltaguns (That'd be FF MW then).
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orangesm
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Post subject: Elysian Drop Troop Army List Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 7:06 pm |
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Or what an Airborne unit would carry. They are about getting close right... not close combat close but firefight close. It makes sense.
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Legion 4
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Post subject: Elysian Drop Troop Army List Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 7:28 pm |
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That would be their version of a LAW or MAW. And again, snipers would be deployed too ... And ABN units have man packed ADW, like the Redeye/Stinger, SAM-7 etc. ... However G/W has nothing in it's "Fluff" for that, but it shouldn't be too hard to come up with rules for Man Pad ADW ... LAW/MAW, Snipers, ADW ... that's the way we did it in the 101 ! 
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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
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Honda
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Post subject: Elysian Drop Troop Army List Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 7:47 pm |
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Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:44 pm
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@E&C,
I understand your intent and as one of the newly joined ranks of 40K Elysians, I am in complete agreement with you.
Now, regarding Epic, one of the things that the community at large is not aware of is how I approached porting this list from IA3. I actually have written up a "Designers Notes" article that was intended for the SG online magazine. It hasn't appeared yet.
I am having some polite inquiries made into whether or not it will see the light of day and the rough time frame. If the article is not expected to show up in a reasonable timeframe (TBD), then I shall consider retracting it for sooner access.
So without giving up the ghost, each type of infantry was assigned a role, then designed for that role. Since those roles do overlap in 40K, I fudged things a bit when it came to assigning the Hvets role, by taking some weapons away. Otherwise, at the Epic scale, there wasn't enough differientiation in the abilities to justify two kinds of units.
Without trying to be coy, I will say that there is a logical reason for why the veterans are the way they are.
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Honda
"Remember Taros? We do"
- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment
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Evil and Chaos
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Post subject: Elysian Drop Troop Army List Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 8:03 pm |
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Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
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Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire
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Eh, I see the two unit types as distinct enough that they should be specialised troop types, rather than fudged into one unit that is okay at both tasks.
I understand your reasoning though.
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Honda
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Post subject: Elysian Drop Troop Army List Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 8:22 pm |
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Eh, I see the two unit types as distinct enough that they should be specialised troop types, rather than fudged into one unit that is okay at both tasks.
I'm not sure I understand your comment. The ST and the HVets are different units, not something combined. However the operational roles that they perform in the list has been given more structure.
Probably not how you would have done it..., but then I think I've said that once before in another discussion. 
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Honda
"Remember Taros? We do"
- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment
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Evil and Chaos
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Post subject: Elysian Drop Troop Army List Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2006 12:27 am |
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I'm not talking about Storm Troopers and Veterans.
I'm talking about Snipers and Veterans, which are seperate in the 40k Elysian list (Okay you could optionally arm Veterans with Sniper Rifles instead of Meltaguns but you'd have to want to lose the game pretty badly to do so), but combined into one in your list.
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Legion 4
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Post subject: Elysian Drop Troop Army List Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2006 12:56 am |
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Follow the fluff closely or DWWFY ! 
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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
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Legion 4
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Post subject: Elysian Drop Troop Army List Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 6:37 pm |
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The primary method for SEADS (Supression of Enemy Air Defense Systems) is Indirect Fire Support, ie. FA, Naval/Orbital Fire Support. And this can be simulated in the game, relatively well ... And your point is well taken, Epic is ground forces supported by Aircraft. Air should not be the heart and soul of the game. The F/W game due out in summer is all about Air ...
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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
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orangesm
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Post subject: Elysian Drop Troop Army List Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 7:04 pm |
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But the only primary AA weapon that has a range shorter than 45 cm is the Ork Flakwagon.
I think that the AA weapons are not well designed. The Hydra has standard Autocannons, not the elongated AA Autocannons it is depicted as having. Possibly a reworking of the various AA weapons is needed along with the one weapon one stat for the Aircraft.
Simply retarding Airpower is not the answer, but ensuring that the whole Air system lines up with the Ground units. At the moment it does not, even within the confines of the current rules Aerospace rules.
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