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[Black Crusade] Cadian army lists
Chroma
 Post subject: [Black Crusade] Cadian army lists
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 3:54 pm 
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(orangesm @ Jul. 03 2007,15:44)
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What about doing a single list - have the Kasrkins be Mechanized while the core Infantry is not? ?The Kasrkin Companies represent the Mechanized Strike component of the Cadian force while the core Infantry and such are defending their Bastions.

Well, what's wrong with having two lists showing opposite "approaches" by the same forces?  I'll be doing it as a .pdf, so space/pages isn't really a concern.  *laugh*

I'll definitely keep it in mind, but I'd like to see playtests of both types of list.

Will Ulthwe get in Black Crusade?

I would like them to be in there, and have done some prep/layout for them, but MC23, the alternate Eldar list Army Champion has been AWOL for quite some time and hasn't responded to any of my requests.

*Why was my name bolded?
Er, that's something that tends to get done at FARK.com, bold the name of the person you're replying to or naming in a post.

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Chroma
 Post subject: [Black Crusade] Cadian army lists
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 3:56 pm 
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(BlackLegion @ Jul. 03 2007,15:51)
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Iron Discipline
Formations require one more Blastmarker than remaining units to break (+50 points for Companies, + 25 points for Support Formations). Can?t combined with Chem-Inhalers.

Thanks BlackLegion, I'd just downloaded and read that.

See, to me it's too small an effect to be worth buying.  I'd rather have Snipers or a Hydra than the very minor bonus of requiring one more BM.  The way IG die like flies, I can't see it having much of an effect at all.

I actually thought it was closer to the 40k TSKNF than it was.

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Soren
 Post subject: [Black Crusade] Cadian army lists
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 4:06 pm 
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(Hena @ Jul. 03 2007,15:01)
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I think that you are looking at this way too detailed. They don't need any special rules. Look at the Stormtroopers. Just better weapons and stat values will do in these cases. Not every single detail in 40k needs to show up in this scale ...

I?m full with you in this point. The things are getting way too detailed.

Take the steel legion list, add  maybe Kasrkin Companies, sanctioned psykers and whiteshield (in neccessary) and you have your Cadia list. It differs not much from other lists, at least in the level of operation we play.

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Chroma
 Post subject: [Black Crusade] Cadian army lists
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 4:12 pm 
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(Soren @ Jul. 03 2007,16:06)
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I?m full with you in this point. The things are getting way too detailed.

Take the steel legion list, add ?maybe Kasrkin Companies, sanctioned psykers and whiteshield (in neccessary) and you have your Cadia list. It differs not much from other lists, at least in the level of operation we play.

The whole point is that, before the collapse of Specialist Games, there were supposed to be all kinds of different army lists describing different organizational styles of fighting, based on the core lists, with occasional new units and different formations.

The Speed Freeks and White Scars lists are perfect examples of this, as are the experimental other Eldar Craftworld lists.

If you want to play Cadians that way, just use the basic Steel Legion list and, for the most part, you'll be fine.  But variant lists should take some things away as well as add things.

Cadian forces tend not to use abhumans, so Ogryns are gone.  The focus on soldiers, so their core/company formations are infantry based, so armour and arty can only be taken in support.  All those changes make for a different play experience.  Which, I think, is good.

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Chroma
 Post subject: [Black Crusade] Cadian army lists
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 4:24 pm 
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(Hena @ Jul. 03 2007,16:21)
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But these variant lists don't need (nor in most cases should have) new special rules. That's the wrong path. Changes in organisation level. Few new units, some units removed. Yes. But bunch of new special rules? No.

Well, that's why I've clipped out "Iron Discipline" from the next version of my Cadian lists.  I thought it was a lot closer (read: more effective) to TSKNF than it was, so there's no need for it now.

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Soren
 Post subject: [Black Crusade] Cadian army lists
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 4:38 pm 
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You can play the Steel legion list based on Infanty without needing to design a new list. Even there you get you Stormtroopers as Kasrkin, Tank support as upgrade choice and you even need not to buy chimeras for your foodsloggers if you don?t want to.

We never get a list done if we do not focus on some lists and cut down the wild grown tree-lists in the wood of SG. Hell I have more than a dozen of downloads here from Deathkorps list and we are not much nearer on finishing it than at download 1.31. There is a Tank Corps list which has to be finished and over a half dozen Space Marine lists, inconsistently growing wild with new ideas, but no solution for the problems cencountered in the core lists. The playtesters community is about two to three dozen members, at best. This is not more than two or three on one list. Too few to get the job done bringing out balanced and stylish lists.

I am not against your ideas, Chroma, please don?t misunderstand me (like some of them really), but I strongly suggest to finish the projects pending before generating more and more unfinished business. You are one of the core testers, I would feel better seeing reports of existing lists not new ones.
But more happy would make me an solution and testing of the Marauder and Roughrider problem.

my 0,0002 cents

Soren




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Chroma
 Post subject: [Black Crusade] Cadian army lists
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 4:45 pm 
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(Soren @ Jul. 03 2007,16:38)
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I am not against your ideas, Chroma, please don?t misunderstand me (like some of them really), but I strongly suggest to finish the projects pending before generating more and more unfinished business. You are one of the core testers, I would feel better seeing reports of existing lists not new ones.
But more happy would make me an solution and testing of the Marauder and Roughrider problem.

Okay, I get where you're coming from Soren, sorry if I came off a little heated there.

You're right in the fact that there should be some more focus on some of the "in progress" lists before so many more new ones come into play.

I think the fact that the Rules/Army Review is dragging on so long is really discouraging people so they're starting to branch out and lose focus. ?And, really, creating new lists is a lot of fun! ?*laugh*

I just threw the Cadian stuff together over a long weekend here in Canada because I had an itching inspiraton to do something new. ?My group of players isn't that big and, sadly, people are getting tired of facing Tyranids all the time, so I wanted to try something different. (Of course, my game day yesterday fell through, so I just did painting and modelling instead.)

Lastly, I thought I'd proposed a clean and simple answer to the Rough Rider "problem", but I'm not sure if any else has tried it on the field.

Marauders... well, that's somebody else's problem! ? :D

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orangesm
 Post subject: [Black Crusade] Cadian army lists
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 4:56 pm 
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I really think that a slight departure from Codex: Eye of Terror may be appropriate.  What if we moved the focus of Black Crusade away from Cadia and instead focused on one of the other worlds and have the Krieg Siegebreakers list be the Imperial List?

Complete departure from the thread, but it would concentrate the effort a little more, yes we would have to generate some background for the conflict on said world - but that could be half the fun.

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Soren
 Post subject: [Black Crusade] Cadian army lists
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 4:56 pm 
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(Chroma @ Jul. 03 2007,16:45)
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Okay, I get where you're coming from Soren, sorry if I came off a little heated there.
[....]

I think the fact that the Rules/Army Review is dragging on so long is really discouraging people so they're starting to branch out and lose focus.  And, really, creating new lists is a lot of fun!  *laugh*

Oh I know, Chroma, I have more list ideas laying around than  finished miniatures   :D . Some nights, boring TV, no friends on skype or ICQ online, noone available for a game, there is some idea waiting to be brought on paper and take some shape.....  :blush:

my 0,0002 cents

Soren

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: [Black Crusade] Cadian army lists
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 6:24 pm 
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Found it!

This was the Cadian list done on the old forum, with a couple of edits over the last 2-3 years as people back home occasionally played it. I've brought it up to match other similar lists unit wise but otherwise haven't changed much.

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Chroma
 Post subject: [Black Crusade] Cadian army lists
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 6:28 pm 
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(The_Real_Chris @ Jul. 06 2007,18:24)
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Found it!

The Real Chris, did you get my PM about "Black Crusade"?

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: [Black Crusade] Cadian army lists
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 6:30 pm 
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Nope - then again someone else may have clicked on this and read it before me.

Edit - it is indeed there, I just hadn't got an alert!

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wargame_insomniac
 Post subject: [Black Crusade] Cadian army lists
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 7:18 pm 
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Hi- I have read both lists- Chroma's and link posted by TRC. I liked elements of both.

Making artillery & tanks as support formations arther than Companies was interesting.

Would prefer to see 1 Cadian list rather than 2 separate Strike Force/Defence Force lists.

Any plans for any of FW variant LR/SHT? IIRC Cadian troops have a lot of plasma weaponry due to the number of Forgeworlds in the sector. Would be nice to see some Ryza pattern vehicles. Executioner & Stormblade?? Plus Destoyer would be cool.

Cheers

James

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Chroma
 Post subject: [Black Crusade] Cadian army lists
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 9:40 pm 
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(wargame_insomniac @ Jul. 06 2007,19:18)
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Making artillery & tanks as support formations arther than Companies was interesting.

My desire was to make infantry the focus, whether mech or ground-pounding, but with lots of techincal support options and "elite" infantry.
Would prefer to see 1 Cadian list rather than 2 separate Strike Force/Defence Force lists.

Well, this is another experiment I'd like to try, showing two different army lists for the "same" army.

Cadians seem to fight in two different styles depending on whether they are attacking or defending, so I wanted to reflect that quite strongly; hence two lists.
Any plans for any of FW variant LR/SHT? IIRC Cadian troops have a lot of plasma weaponry due to the number of Forgeworlds in the sector. Would be nice to see some Ryza pattern vehicles. Executioner & Stormblade?? Plus Destoyer would be cool.
I'm thinking about allowing some of the variants into the list; how heavily have the various stats for FW stuff been playtested?

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