As far as being too strong, keep in mind that EVERY unit in a teleporting formation must roll to see if they get a blast marker. With the sizes of the drop troop companies, it is very rare that you ever get away without blast markers and it is quite common to end up with two and sometime three. I've even had more.

So that means in any type of combat, you are already starting under the gun against a fresh formation. The effect of blast markers on your formations should not be underestimated.

_________________
Epic- A version of the game with even smaller models that is often dominated by titans which are vehicles the size of a large building and have the ability to pwn...everything. There is also infantry, whose only function in Epic is to provide valuable traction to Titans walking across snowy paths.

Honestly a bunch of BMs won't matter much if you use your Drop Companies primarily as Support in Assaults as I plan to since they don't have any Shooting attacks you don't need to worry about not having any firepower due to BMs.

What I really want is a Storm Trooper formation without Valkyries so that I can Sustain in preparation for an Assault when the Sentinels can't be supporting.

_________________
Fear is for the enemy, fear and bullets.
-James O'Barr, the Crow

Honestly a bunch of BMs won't matter much if you use your Drop Companies primarily as Support in Assaults as I plan to since they don't have any Shooting attacks you don't need to worry about not having any firepower due to BMs.

_________________
Honda

"Remember Taros? We do"

- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment

Yes, well you'll just have to work that out with the IG Army List Champion.

_________________
Fear is for the enemy, fear and bullets.
-James O'Barr, the Crow

3000pts

Reginmental HQ Valkyres
Drop Troop Company Valkyres
Storm Troopers
Storm Troopers
Vultures
Vultures
Drop Sentinel
Drop Sentinel
Support Sentinel
Marauder Destroyers

Will give this a test tonight using 90cm Vulture range.

_________________
Epic- A version of the game with even smaller models that is often dominated by titans which are vehicles the size of a large building and have the ability to pwn...everything. There is also infantry, whose only function in Epic is to provide valuable traction to Titans walking across snowy paths.

I used the list described in my previous post vs Eldar.

Army was Warp Spiders, Dark Reapers, Revenants, Falcons (1 AA tank), Pheonix bombers, War Walkers, a couple of units of bikers.

A lot of the Eldar was pretty much decimated over the first couple of turns.

The Destroyers took out the Falcons at the start to 1 point of damage.

One unit of vultures took out a revenant and then it was broken by moving up some Valkyres and clipping it with a barrage on another unit.

The infantry in the army was hammered by repeatedly using large Valkyre barrages to clip multiple units as they can be broken really fast with the extra blast markers for large barrages.

My gut feeling is that the capacity to take large numbers of Valkyres as part of single formations is problematic and keeping them down to four per formation would help a lot.  It also would suit the fluff of the army as small elite infantry formations move around and claim objectives rather than having the capacity to build point and click barrage delivery systems.

_________________
Epic- A version of the game with even smaller models that is often dominated by titans which are vehicles the size of a large building and have the ability to pwn...everything. There is also infantry, whose only function in Epic is to provide valuable traction to Titans walking across snowy paths.

@Mark_Logue

Very interesting comments. I have a couple of questions for you:

1. Not trying to be snippy here, just get a feel for the match up. Would you say that your opponent was equally skilled as you or less? Do they regularly play Eldar? Did you discuss what the Eldar's plan was or did you hit hard enough early on that it really didn't matter?

2. Regarding the barrages...

One unit of vultures took out a revenant and then it was broken by moving up some Valkyres and clipping it with a barrage on another unit.

The infantry in the army was hammered by repeatedly using large Valkyre barrages to clip multiple units as they can be broken really fast with the extra blast markers for large barrages.

_________________
Honda

"Remember Taros? We do"

- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment

Would you say that your opponent was equally skilled as you or less? Do they regularly play Eldar? Did you discuss what the Eldar's plan was or did you hit hard enough early on that it really didn't matter?

_________________
Epic- A version of the game with even smaller models that is often dominated by titans which are vehicles the size of a large building and have the ability to pwn...everything. There is also infantry, whose only function in Epic is to provide valuable traction to Titans walking across snowy paths.

Ok, thank you for verifying my questions.

Now, I'd would like it if you could play him a couple more times (or more if you are willing). The reason I say that, is I want to see what he does in reaction to the list, now that there is some familiarity with what you are capable of.

I'm not completely surprised that you really spanked him in the first game, the list doesn't operate like others do. I am interested in seeing how he approaches the tactical problem given more intelligence.

So, I'm not dismissing your findings, I am interested in seeing how duplicatable they are.

Cheers,

_________________
Honda

"Remember Taros? We do"

- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment

Well I unleashed the Elysians vs the obscene hordes of the Orks

HQ - with Platoon, Fire support, 2 Vets
3x ST-company
2x Vultures
3x Drop Sentinels
Maruaders
2925 points

orks (I think its like this)
Uge warband
big stompa mob and Supastompa
Landa with warband
2 blitz with oddboyz
big gunz with oddboy

The Elysians garrisoned All 3 Storm Companies and both Vulture squadrons. The HQ and Sentinels stayed off table to teleport.

The Orks matched by garrisoning the Uge Warband and big gunz.

No teleports first turn, which may have been a bad idea.

The IG went first, sending in the Marauders to try and suppress some of the inevitable overwatch before moving. They did some damage to the Stompas but failed to break them. I retained an Vulture squad 1 sent the remaining Stompas back to Gork.

The rest is a little hazy, the orks air-assaulted, the Bombers got some defensive AA but no damage.

Then all hell-broke loose.

In the after math of turn 1 the IG held firm in the middle, but 1 set of Vultures was gone and everyone was covered in BMs

Turn 2 all the cav teleported in to envelope the greenskins and the murderous melee continued.

The Uge Warband broke and was harried back toward its blitz, but the Oddboy wagonz evaporated their weight in Sentinels and Vultures leaving nothing to make the blitz run with.

The marauders failed to arrive turn 2, turn three they broke a blitz, and a series of running engagements left the Elysian force gutted but winning 2-0 with Defend the Flag and Take and Hold. A single remaining wagon prevented They Shall Not Pass.

_________________
Fear is for the enemy, fear and bullets.
-James O'Barr, the Crow

Well I unleashed the Elysians vs the obscene hordes of the Orks

_________________
Honda

"Remember Taros? We do"

- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment

I'm not completely surprised that you really spanked him in the first game, the list doesn't operate like others do. I am interested in seeing how he approaches the tactical problem given more intelligence.

So, I'm not dismissing your findings, I am interested in seeing how duplicatable they are.

_________________
Epic- A version of the game with even smaller models that is often dominated by titans which are vehicles the size of a large building and have the ability to pwn...everything. There is also infantry, whose only function in Epic is to provide valuable traction to Titans walking across snowy paths.

I'll do the quote-byquote answer form to make sure I hit all the points you need.



It was 1 Formation of 2 Marauder Destroyers.
No Drop Companies because they can't garrison and they are too expensive when you give them Valkyries for the list I was making.
The STs have a shooting attack, are 1 less unit for 75 less points, have armor and better FF.
Your inference is correct, but I'll be attempting some Drop companies because the STs really had BM trouble as it wore on, if we'd gone to turn 4 I would have been crushed.

Our local Ork player tends to take gobs of aircraft, several large warbands, in fact about as much infantry as he can. Then he goes all "Russian" on us and to date he still has the best win/loss record. So this is a different look than I am used to. Do your regular opponents not take aircraft very often?

_________________
Fear is for the enemy, fear and bullets.
-James O'Barr, the Crow

Ok, got caught up on all the threads and battle reports (btw, thanx for finding those, I had not read them) and I have a couple of comments/observations:

1. Now this may be just a perception, but I don't seem to see the Elysian opponents
playing as aggressively as I seem to be used to. Not saying that the opponent's are bad players, but I don't see any comments about retaining initiative and setting up one-two punches with one formation assaulting with another in support. Maybe that's going on, but it doesn't seem that way.

Yielding the initiative to the Elysians is plain unhealthy as you have been able to demonstrate.  Maybe it's more of a case of our local group and how we play, but I always feel like I'm in a knife fight when playing the Big E.

2. Garrisoning: I must be the wrong personality for this because I never garrisoned with the Elysians. I do see what you have been saying about the advantages, so I'm pretty certain that option will be removed from the list.

3. Formation sizes: I will look at this. I'm currently leaning towards a smaller formation with Valks or a larger one without Valks.

4. I'm also looking into the Vulture abuse issue, but I'm going to tread carefully in this area. My reasoning is that the Elysians don't have a lot of firepower by definition and a determined "Flak head" could take the joy out of the list pretty quickly, if you have to rely on aircraft. So I may ratchet these down later after some of the other changes have been tested.

5. Storm Troopers: I think making these a support choice makes a lot of sense, so expect to see this in the next version.



Now having said all of that...


3000pts would then become something like


Drop Troop Companies
Reg HQ
Drop Troop Company x 3

Support
2 x Vultures
2 x Storm Troopers with Valkyres (at the standard 350 pts ea)

Air

Lightnings
Destroyers

I don't see that as too overpowered anymore. ?I have suddenlly lost 10 Valkyres and now have bigger drop troop formations that either have to march a long way across the board or teleport in to assault having a lower strategy rating that most armies and generally doing the assault with a couple of blast markers unless I am really lucky. ?The Elysians aren't able to shoot so generally they are going to have to drop in and assault and then they can't get anywhere fast.

_________________
Honda

"Remember Taros? We do"

- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment

1. Now this may be just a perception, but I don't seem to see the Elysian opponents
playing as aggressively as I seem to be used to. Not saying that the opponent's are bad players, but I don't see any comments about retaining initiative and setting up one-two punches with one formation assaulting with another in support. Maybe that's going on, but it doesn't seem that way.

_________________
Fear is for the enemy, fear and bullets.
-James O'Barr, the Crow