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Death Korps of Krieg v1.8
The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Death Korps of Krieg v1.8
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 4:32 am 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Apr. 01 2007,19:40)
QUOTE
4+ RA Save.
2x Battle Cannon   AP4+ / AT4+  75cm
I'm thinking, support formation of 3, including 1 command Macharius?

Because it's specifically not a twin-linked battle cannon in 40k, it's two seperate battle cannons.

Two battle-cannons, them's the rules.

1 - Epic is not a copy of 40k (for instance look at WE and the DC's compared to forgeworld ideas).

2 - Whether it is twin or 2 guns is dependant on game balance, not how it fires its guns in 40k - remember an epic turn is 15 minutes roughly - 40k at best is 5 (from what I remember). If you find out its easier to balance twin linked, you make it twin linked.

3 - To remember when pointing - Due to the game mechanics of Epic a formation of 3 WE DC2 are tougher than 6 Leman Russ. They supress harder, they can alter who takes the first hits and the hit allocation spreads damage out rather than remove whole tanks (12 hits would on average kill 3 'Russ, here with 4 hits on each tank each would on average suffer one point of damage, supressing two tanks and leaving the formation still fighting.

4 - Direct comparison wise your FF factor is off.
A Leman Russ on average gets 1/2 a FF hit, your tank gets 1 1/3 - a baneblade with a lot more toughness and weapons gets 1 1/2. Remember also as a WE you have a bit assault bonus in being able to alway FF, making a poor CC value less of a problem.
As a result something like FF 5+ is better makes a russ 1/2, you 2/3 a baneblade 1 1/2 Course you could be FF4+ giving you a value of 1, but I don't think it is 2/3's as good as a baneblade (having about 4/9's of the firepower and less toughness), meaning it should probably be FF5+

5 - Remember also as a WE you will block line of sight (something to remember in game!)

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ragnarok
 Post subject: Death Korps of Krieg v1.8
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 9:51 am 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Apr. 01 2007,19:40)
QUOTE
The Macharius Heavy MBT.

Proposed stats:

4+ RA Save.
3+ Firefight
6+ Close Combat
Speed 15cm
Damage Capacity - 2

2x Battle Cannon ? AP4+ / AT4+ ?75cm
2x Heavy Bolter ? AP5+ ? 30cm
Twin Heavy Stubber AP5+ ? ?30cm
Heavy Stubber ? ? AP6+ ? ? ?30cm

Command Macharius upgrade:

Replace Battle Cannons with Vanquisher Cannons.
Replace Heavy Bolters with Lascannons.

I'm thinking, support formation of 3, including 1 command Macharius?

Ideas on cost?

I kinda agree with TRC that the battlecannons should be twin linked.  All other guns in the game that are side by side are twin linked.  I can understand why FW wants them to be seperate, making them like a battleships turret when each gun would fire seperately if need be.  However (especailly in 40K) the ame length doesn't allow for quick retargetting of the seperate barrel.
Do they count as coaxle in 40K?  (I assume you have committed the enitre book to memory from a quick glance at it)

Also I would remove the single heavy stubber from its stats.  It is a pintle mounted weapon that every IG MBT is allowed but don't have.

Finally I think its FF should be reduced to 4+.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Death Korps of Krieg v1.8
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 11:47 am 
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(The_Real_Chris @ Apr. 02 2007,04:32)
QUOTE

(Evil and Chaos @ Apr. 01 2007,19:40)
QUOTE
4+ RA Save.
2x Battle Cannon   AP4+ / AT4+  75cm
I'm thinking, support formation of 3, including 1 command Macharius?

Because it's specifically not a twin-linked battle cannon in 40k, it's two seperate battle cannons.

Two battle-cannons, them's the rules.

1 - Epic is not a copy of 40k (for instance look at WE and the DC's compared to forgeworld ideas).

2 - Whether it is twin or 2 guns is dependant on game balance, not how it fires its guns in 40k - remember an epic turn is 15 minutes roughly - 40k at best is 5 (from what I remember). If you find out its easier to balance twin linked, you make it twin linked.

Agreed, of course, but my first instinct is to go with 2x shots, because that's what ForgeWorld are trying themselves (And to my knowlege, it hasn't been done before in 40k either.

If it turns out too powerful, then twin-linked would most likely be the first nudge.

3 - To remember when pointing - Due to the game mechanics of Epic a formation of 3 WE DC2 are tougher than 6 Leman Russ. They supress harder, they can alter who takes the first hits and the hit allocation spreads damage out rather than remove whole tanks (12 hits would on average kill 3 'Russ, here with 4 hits on each tank each would on average suffer one point of damage, supressing two tanks and leaving the formation still fighting.


Definitely worth bearing in mind.

4 - Direct comparison wise your FF factor is off.
A Leman Russ on average gets 1/2 a FF hit, your tank gets 1 1/3 - a baneblade with a lot more toughness and weapons gets 1 1/2. Remember also as a WE you have a bit assault bonus in being able to alway FF, making a poor CC value less of a problem.
As a result something like FF 5+ is better makes a russ 1/2, you 2/3 a baneblade 1 1/2 Course you could be FF4+ giving you a value of 1, but I don't think it is 2/3's as good as a baneblade (having about 4/9's of the firepower and less toughness), meaning it should probably be FF5+

With that in mind I'd probably go with FF4+

5 - Remember also as a WE you will block line of sight (something to remember in game!)

Again, worth bearing in mind.


The solid fact is that these tanks are based on the Gorgon Chassis, they're twice the size of a Leman Russ tank, and definitely deserving of their DC-2 IMHO.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Death Korps of Krieg v1.8
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 11:49 am 
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I kinda agree with TRC that the battlecannons should be twin linked.  All other guns in the game that are side by side are twin linked.  I can understand why FW wants them to be seperate, making them like a battleships turret when each gun would fire seperately if need be.  However (especailly in 40K) the ame length doesn't allow for quick retargetting of the seperate barrel.
Do they count as coaxle in 40K?  (I assume you have committed the enitre book to memory from a quick glance at it)


Didn't see, mostly I just chatted to the game & model designers rather than leafed through IA:5.

Also I would remove the single heavy stubber from its stats.  It is a pintle mounted weapon that every IG MBT is allowed but don't have.
Agreed.

Finally I think its FF should be reduced to 4+.
Agreed.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Death Korps of Krieg v1.8
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 12:11 pm 
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To keep this in perspective:

The Death Korps (After the Macharius is introduced) will have:

- 3 company types
- 8 support formation types
- 6 company upgrades




Steel legion has:

- 7 company types
- 9 support formation types
- 8 company upgrades



The only arenas where the Death Korps have more choice than the Steel Legion list in direct-comparison (Like for like) is in:

a- Fine tuning. (Ie: Support platforms cost different ammount depending on what gun is mounted to them)

b- They have two extra Leman Russ types.

c- They have two extra super-heavy tanks.

In analysis:

a- I don't think this is a bad thing.

b- As long as they're pointed & statted correctly, I don't think allowing players to use the fluffy Leman Russ Thunderers or Destroyers is particularly unbalancing.

c- They're the Death Korps! One of the most iconic elements to the Death Korps is their usage of Super-Heavies (Be they Titans, Transports or Tanks, they use them all).*



* And of course there's the old argument, that the only reason that the FW models aren't game legal in Epic is that someone decided to have an inter-departmental hissy-fit. Why have FW produce many official ships for BFG, but not for Epic? It's illogical for us not to use them as long as they're statted correctly and fit with the background.




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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Death Korps of Krieg v1.8
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 12:38 pm 
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Again that is your opinion, not fact. Don't state it as such.


'Argument' means I'm stating opinion.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Death Korps of Krieg v1.8
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 12:57 pm 
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Count the unit types as well.


The Death Korps have (Or will have in the next version):

4 Unit Types in Company Choices
23 Unit Types in Support Formation Choices
12 Unit Types in Upgrade Choices


The Steel Legion have:

10 Unit Types in Company Choices
14 Unit Types in Support Formation Choices
10 Unit Types in Upgrade Choices



This means that:

a- The Death Korps have 6 less units as 'core' Company choices.
b- The Death Korps have 9 more units as Support Formation choices.
c- The Death Korps have 2 more units as Upgrade choices.


Considering how limited the 'core' of the army is, it's no real surprise to me that there's a heavy bias towards allowing extra choices in the Support Formations for the army... especially when you consider that several of those unit choices are 'marginal' to the army list (Such units as Trojans, Centaurs, two AA units, etc), yet it is often these marginal units that help make the flavour of the list.


In a simple total tally of unit types available, the Death Korps have 6 more unit types than the Steel Legion, all of which can be accounted for from the extra tank types, with the remainder providing alternate army choices.


What would you take out, other than the two SHT's & the two extra Leman Russ types?

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Death Korps of Krieg v1.8
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 1:04 pm 
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Here are the units I would consider removing:


- Chimeras. *Marginal to the list's balance*
- Stormblades.    *As with Chimera*
- Deathstrikes.     *Overlap with Shadowswords*
- Heavy Mortars.     *Overlap with Thudd guns*
- Thunderers.          *Only there for fluff reasons rather than to fulfill a requirement*

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Death Korps of Krieg v1.8
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 1:44 pm 
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I would like to keep the 'regunned' savalaged tanks - I can image these chaps getting the salvage fromother regiments and putting it back into the fight.

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J0k3r
 Post subject: Death Korps of Krieg v1.8
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 1:53 pm 
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(Hena @ Apr. 02 2007,13:34)
QUOTE
I'd go for (would need to think a bit more about this, but simple list here none the less).

1. Destoyer, Vanquisher and Thunderer. Simplifies the list as the variant LR part can be removed.
2. Shadowsword as it doesn't have the proper WW1 feel.
3. Thudd Guns. Heavy Mortars are more like it :).
4. Chimeras could be removed as extra (as no one else can use them as Grenadiers and they have two choice in addition)
5. Hydra or Heavy AA gun. These do essentially same thing there. Btw, is there a typo in Hydra platform range as it is 30cm?
6. That super heavy mortar would be so cool, but if FW isn't doing it for Krieg then no can do

Then some organisatorial changes

1. Remove the 3 sized super heavy platoon.
2. Perhaps remove tank platoon, but I'm not really sure about this honestly
3. Allow Super Heavy upgrade (1 tank)

Just to butt in here- id be massively against removing the larger SHT platoons.  One of the things about this list is that you have very few support slots given the high cost of companies, the result is that if you can only field SHT's singly then you cant have more than ~2-3 total for a 3000 point army without cutting back on other important things like artillery.  However SHV's are supposed to be *the* iconic element of Kreig in addition to infantry hordes, so it makes sense to allow greater access to them. Also you are losing the company price reduction if you field support units of three which furher limits their efficacy.

Having said that alternatives to the variable SHT size unit I would suggest include:

1) Make the support formation fixed at 2 SHT (happy medium, can introduce a slight points reduction to allow more fielding of ST as is appropriate with Kreig)
2) Introduce a single SHT as a company upgrade (unless this is already there, cant remember.....)

As to what could be removed...
1) Chimeras- was never too bothererd by them in the list anyway
2)THudd guns/hvy mortars. Id go for the heavy mortars over thudd guns as this further differentiates the Kreig from baran
3)SHT variants.  Difficult choice.  Poss baneblade as the macharius could fulfill a similar generic HBT role.  The others have nice niches- stormblade and stormsword both nasty, short ranged and brutal, just like the DKOK.  Shadowsword- in a sense this is powerful, direct fire atillery used in an anti tank role.  You cant get much more WW1 than that.
4) I owuld agree that the deathstrike is perhaps superfluous, likewise the super heavy mortar (as much as i hate to say it...)




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Ilushia
 Post subject: Death Korps of Krieg v1.8
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 2:00 pm 
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Are there any 40K restrictions on Leman Russ variants, anyway? I thought the Forgeworld ones were virtually ubiquitous with their special rules allowing ANY IG army to field them at present. Likewise with the SHTs.
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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Death Korps of Krieg v1.8
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 4:03 pm 
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(Ilushia @ Apr. 02 2007,14:00)
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Are there any 40K restrictions on Leman Russ variants, anyway? I thought the Forgeworld ones were virtually ubiquitous with their special rules allowing ANY IG army to field them at present. Likewise with the SHTs.

For the most part there are none, other than fluff restrictions, ie:

- Leman Russ Vanquishers & Destroyers are supposed to be rare.

- Leman Russ Thunderers are supposed to only appear in armies that take an ad-hoc approach to repairs, and are willing to sacrifice STC-purity on the altar of victory. Fluffwise it's only deployed for siegebreaking as it has a very short range.


The same with the SHT's:

- The Baneblade and the Shadowsword are the 'pure' STC SHT's, and are the most common.

- The Stormblade is a lower-cost (fluffwise), lower-ranged alternative to the Shadowsword.

- The Stormsword is a Shadowsword which has been damaged, and then rebuilt with an ad-hoc siege weapon in place of the high-tech volcano cannon.


On fluff grounds, some armies aren't encouraged to field them (Cadians for example, are more likely to have 'pure' SHT's), while other armies are positively encouraged to use the lower-tech SHT's (Like the Krieg, for example).




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