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Elysian Drop Troop

colonel_sponsz

Post subject: Elysian Drop Troop

Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 2:38 pm

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(Ithikial @ Jun. 07 2007,06:23)

QUOTE

I really can't see a reason why experienced air drop troops would take BM's on a quiet part of the battlefield.

It helps represent the fact that, no matter how good they are, parachute troops will land in a somewhat random pattern with their heavy kit coming in separate containers. It takes time for them to dispose of their 'cutes and drop kit (even super sci-fi grav packs), gather kit, regroup and establish effective command and control. (This is nowhere near as much of a problem when you insert squads using flying buses.)

If they are not in a hot area of the battlefield, that BM isn't going to have much effect but, if they are landing under fire, then the extra BM is going to be more of a problem - which is a pretty good representation of what happens when you drop paras into hot LZ's.

Orde

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Legion 4

Post subject: Elysian Drop Troop

Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 4:20 pm

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Yes, Helos are vulnerable so hiding behind cover and poping up is a most effective tactic ... Having them flying around in the open more than needed, is like driving Rhinos (M113s) in the open too long ... Boom !!!!

?Now I've made a few parachute drops, I think the BM rule, reflects the regrouping immediatelty after the drop. ?That is the advantage of a glider in the past, or a chopper currently, you don't have to regroup as much. And Heavier Weapons (bigger than an Med. MG), are more readily available. ? ? ? ? ?But my question is, I don't think Grav-chutes are as inaccurate as "Silk"(Nylon) Chutes and regrouping is quicker. And G-Chutes more easily "disposed" of ? ?I never "used" a Grav-Chute ... for obvious reasons ... what's the fluff say ? ?

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Mark_Logue

Post subject: Elysian Drop Troop

Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 7:49 am

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The big one off attack at the start of the game has definitely proven to be very effective against Eldar.

I am actually a fan of using a planet fall/teleport type rule where they do get BMs.

It doesn't seem unreasonable to me that they would pottential be a bit disrupted when trying to work out whats going on on the battlefield after dropping down from high flying at fast speed to battlefeild deployment.

Getting BM on arriving would definitely make them trickier to use and prevent the big one off attacks from being so easily done. The Elysian formations are particularly vulnerable to BMs because they don't have shooting weapons so its always the Valkyres that will be supressed whereas with the Storm Troopers can jump out the back and take the supression.

The other issue that we found is that against the Eldar tanks and titans their is no real difficulty in taking them out, they can't survive the vultures and you can easilly remove AA thus allowing the Marauders to take out Superheavy tank formations without too much difficulty.

In the 3000pt game Steal Legion vs Drop Troopers that I played after playing Ithikal it wasn't so harsh but the amount of damage that got dished out on the Eldar was crazy, there was very little left unbroken in 6000pts of Eldar (small formations of elite infantry are very vulnerable then they take 3 casualties everytime one of the Elysians Valkyre formations shoots at them with a blast template, then one for each hit as its disrupt plus the normal casualties (which is easy when you have three template barrages). I found you could use storm trooper formations to break a couple of units then usually hit multiple targets with the Elysians.

The other idea I wanted to test out was cutting the size of Elysian formations down to 7 with a commander and 4 Valkyres. Unfortunately Kim isn't to keen on playtesting against it anymore.

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: Elysian Drop Troop

Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 11:13 am

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(Legion 4 @ Jun. 07 2007,16:20)

QUOTE

I never "used" a Grav-Chute ... for obvious reasons ... what's the fluff say ?

The fluff says they're pretty similar to parachutes in operation.

The grav effect isn't so strong that they just land, the landing is still quite rough and fast and bones can get broken if the trooper doesn't land / roll correctly.

After landing, the chute is detached and the trooper is ready to fight.

Heavy weapons and other supplies are landed via shock-absorbant drop-canisters.

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Legion 4

Post subject: Elysian Drop Troop

Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 6:11 am

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Well that is good intell E&C ... so they are a step above of 20th century tech ... Rarely in RL, do you make a landing where you can just walk away, if you are jumping with the standard T-10 (about a step above, WWII) or high tech more modern and steerable MC1-1B, IIRC. And I've never made a jump where someone was not injured ... So in keeping with theory, that Epic is a hi-tech version of WWII, the Ely fluff supports it ... The more steerable Square Chutes that are normally used by SF in HALO ops are considered superior to the standard chutes I mentioned above. And a much softer landing, is the norm. So I guess, I was thinking the Grav Chute was more like HALO chutes ...

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Ithikial

Post subject: Elysian Drop Troop

Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 3:22 am

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Legion, I'm assuming the HALO chutes are some special make or design. I just had nasty images of the Master Chief dropping onto present day battlefield.

Anyway back on topic, I would be keen on trying out the Elysians based on the 'chute' idea Mark mentioned above. I passed along some ideas to him via PM a few days ago and would love to test them. Find below the ideas I sent to Mark. Keep in mind this was before the talk here on the teleport or planetfall debate and the BM debate.

++++

My ideas on the Elysian List for you to think about.

- Valk options dropped from the infantry and storm strooper formations.
- All Elysian infantry and sentinal formations may teleport. Don't take BM's inoutside 30cm of the enemy. Within 30cm of an enemy formation they roll for BM's, to resemble being shot at as the grav chute in or are dropped off by valks that immedeatly depart the area and the general chaos of airborne ops. This makes it a challenge for the guard player to choose teleporting locations and set up some nasty engagements. Elysian army list would fundamentally play differently from regular guard in that the elysians strength actually is assaulting the enemy with lots of support formations (ideally) to win games.
- Infantry Companies increase to 12 units to compensate. Retain their CC5+ and FF5+ to compensate for the loss of valks.
-

?Not sure about this?

Allied Contingent of tanks, super heavies etc in reserve that may come on in turns 2 or 3 as reserves to secure positions. Think operation Market Garden in World War II. These would fall under the 33% allied/support points allowance along with aircraft.
- Valks and Vultures become support options of 4 units strong. 1 support option for every two Elysian infantry company choices. The troops become the main back bone of the guard army not the vehicles / skimmers.

Army List

(Unless stated, same points cost as before)

CORE CHOICES
Elysian HQ (1 only) 8 Units, including a Supreme Commander.
Elysian Company - 12 Units. (Increase of 4 units to give better chance in the engage rolls). Same points cost.
Storm Trooper Company - 8 Units.

SUPPORT CHOICES (1 Support choice for every 2 Core Choices)
Valks - 4 Valks for 350 pts.
Vults - 4 Vults for 300 pts.

UPGRADES (1 Upgrade choice for every Core Choice. One upgrade may be attached to a CORE choice OR they can remain a seperate formation/ Decided before battle).
Hardened Veterans - 4 Units for 100 pts
Mortar Platoon - 4 units of mortars for 100 pts
Fire Support Platoon - 4 units for 100 pts
Infantry Platoon - 4 units for 50 pts
Sentinals - 4 units for 125 pts

D6 Commissars as before.

These upgrades allow for some nasty Elysian Infantry Companies.

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Mark_Logue

Post subject: Elysian Drop Troop

Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 4:58 am

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I would possibly move storm troopers to a support unit with a valkyre transport option on that version of the list.

I am also assuming your reference to sentinals is to a choice of either support or drop sentinals to keep with the Elysian flavour.

I will definitely give it a try some time.

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Legion 4

Post subject: Elysian Drop Troop

Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 5:05 am

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Well, if you've been in the military (USN or USAF ?), and it sounds like you have, I'm sure you may have seen the square chutes that are much more maneuverable then the standard T-10 and MC1-1B, I've jumped both.

? O.K. Back OT - As far as the Market Garden scenario, that would be a good option (but it wasn't for the UK & Pole Paras!), but I think they want to keep this TO&E "pure" Ely ...

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: Elysian Drop Troop

Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 12:18 pm

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Legion, I'm assuming the HALO chutes are some special make or design. I just had nasty images of the Master Chief dropping onto present day battlefield.

High Altitude (Jump), Low Opening.

You jump, you fall a long way, and then you open your chute at minimum safe distance from the ground.

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Legion 4

Post subject: Elysian Drop Troop

Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 2:23 pm

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Ah ... good one E&C ... I thought he knew what HALO stood for ! PLUS - HAHO - High Alt. High Opening (they can actually "glide" like 60 miles) ... And ... The Dreaded "HANO" = High Alt. NO Opening !?!?!

BUT back OT - we can assume (?) that the Ely's G-Chutes are closer to MC1-1Bs; based on the fluff ... I'm figuring ...

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Ithikial

Post subject: Elysian Drop Troop

Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 9:28 am

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Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 7:55 am
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(Legion 4 @ Jun. 13 2007,13:05)

QUOTE

? O.K. Back OT - As far as the Market Garden scenario, that would be a good option (but it wasn't for the UK & Pole Paras!), but I think they want to keep this TO&E "pure" Ely ...

Legion I've never been in the military but one of my university degrees is in history. Is that good enough? :;):

I understand the HALO parachuting thingamajig lingo now.

Mark as for the sentinals, they are as you know a really weak unit and if someone wants to waste points more than two formations of them I say let them. I'd rather verse lots of sentinals than valks and vults.

The big key to this list I feel is somehow limiting the effectiveness of the valks and maybe the vults since you'll have quite a few at your disposal compared to a regular guard list. The valks are the big ones however. With Mark's stormtrooper option, you can still feasibly take two plus storm trooper + valk formations in addition to the raw drop companies to fill out the core choice. I'm still in the opinion that the valks and vults should remain seperate for this list and therefore remain very vunerable than if they were surrounded by a meat shield, oops, i mean guard.

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Legion 4

Post subject: Elysian Drop Troop

Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 3:11 pm

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Good enough, Ithikial ! Military History is a hobby of mine !

Back OT - All assets available, should be used to support the DZ. CAS (Imperial Navy) , Ortillery (Spacecraft), and Gunships(Vults and Valks), maybe even long range FA. "Meat Shield" or not !

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Mark_Logue

Post subject: Elysian Drop Troop

Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 3:33 pm

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I'll add to here the comment about the aircraft, that I made to the Death Korps list as well. Lightnings should be in pairs as the models come in pairs and that makes a bit more vulnerable (and in line with the Thunderbolt usage in main lists).

I think lightnights in threes is OK given that you don't have access to any flack on the table at all and you don't have the greatest strategy rating so aircraft are really your only anti air defence and many armies will get a shot to bomb before you can get them on CAP if they really want to (I don't know the Death Korps list well so this opinion is only for the Elysians).

With Mark's stormtrooper option, you can still feasibly take two plus storm trooper + valk formations in addition to the raw drop companies to fill out the core choice.

The option I was thinking of was to move storm troopers to a support choice with the transport option. ?That makes them a more expensive way of getting Valkyres with the benifit of adding a meat sheild to the Valkyres yes but you would still be limitted in numbers and the biggest issue as I saw it was really getting the units with 5 Valkyres in them because as we saw a 10BP Disrupt shot that can move up to 70 centimeters before fireing was really the worst offender. ?3BMs just for being shot at and 3 templates allowing you to easilly hit multiple units in many cases was the thing that pushed it over the top.

3000pts would then become something like

Drop Troop Companies
Reg HQ
Drop Troop Company x 3

Support
2 x Vultures
2 x Storm Troopers with Valkyres (at the standard 350 pts ea)

Air

Lightnings
Destroyers

I don't see that as too overpowered anymore. ?I have suddenlly lost 10 Valkyres and now have bigger drop troop formations that either have to march a long way across the board or teleport in to assault having a lower strategy rating that most armies and generally doing the assault with a couple of blast markers unless I am really lucky. ?The Elysians aren't able to shoot so generally they are going to have to drop in and assault and then they can't get anywhere fast.

I could still take 4 units of storm troopers and drop the Vultures but then taking out anything heavy would be a real struggle.

The Storm troopers in Valks are necessary to be able to keep the force mobile and claim objectives.

I don't think many people would be happy with creating special rules regarding BMs and teleporting for the Elysian list as generally everyone has made every effort to avoid extra special rules.

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Ithikial

Post subject: Elysian Drop Troop

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 4:04 am

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Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 7:55 am
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Mark keen to try that list out next time you're down in Perth. Eldar or SM's?

:cool:

See if it's just the eldar who have trouble with it.

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