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[Black Crusade] Cadian army lists
Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: [Black Crusade] Cadian army lists
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 2:00 pm 
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How would you suggest reflecting Kasrkin's "elite" nature?


They're no better than any other type of Storm Trooper really, worse, in some regards, as they cannot Deep Strike in 40k (Ie: they don't use Valkyries as much on Cadia, they use Chimeras instead).

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Chroma
 Post subject: [Black Crusade] Cadian army lists
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 2:09 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Jul. 03 2007,13:58)
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The Elysian army (Which has Iron Discipline in 40k) represents this rule by allowing all formations to take 1 extra blast marker than normal before they become broken.

Honestly, that doesn't sound like enough of a special ability to even bother putting in the rules.  How much of a difference has it made for the Elysians?

Note that in 40k, Kasrikin don't get to use the Iron Discipline rule, while the normal Infantry Platoons do.
Since the Iron Discipline rule/ability is given to IG Officers, can't any IG unit, even Kasrkin, within 12 inches of them use it via the "Leadership" ability?

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: [Black Crusade] Cadian army lists
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 2:15 pm 
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Honestly, that doesn't sound like enough of a special ability to even bother putting in the rules.


I agree, which is why I removed the Iron Discipline rule from the Death Korps army list a while ago.

How much of a difference has it made for the Elysians?

Noone can tell, as they tend to win all their games. :D


Since the Iron Discipline rule/ability is given to IG Officers, can't any IG unit, even Kasrkin, within 12 inches of them use it via the "Leadership" ability?

IIRC they can't.

Even if they can, it's the officers of infantry platoons and HQ command squads that provide the Iron Discipline, the Kasrkin themselves are just Storm Troopers who are more numerous, but don't use Valkyries.




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Chroma
 Post subject: [Black Crusade] Cadian army lists
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 2:21 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Jul. 03 2007,14:15)
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Even if they can, it's the officers of infantry platoons and HQ command squads that provide the Iron Discipline, the Kasrkin themselves are just Storm Troopers who are more numerous, but don't use Valkyries.

Yes, but in an EPIC situation, Kasrkin would have their own command units and organization, not just be squads attached to regular forces.

And *ouch* with the Elysians... with that "extra blast marker" thing, does that mean they have one more when they rally from broken as well, so a formation of three units, even with Commissar, will still have 1BM when they rally?

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: [Black Crusade] Cadian army lists
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 2:27 pm 
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Yes, but in an EPIC situation, Kasrkin would have their own command units and organization, not just be squads attached to regular forces.


Yes, most likely that is true.

But that doesn't make them equal in fearlessness to Space Marines. It just means that yes, they get Leader, Commander etc.

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Chroma
 Post subject: [Black Crusade] Cadian army lists
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 2:32 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Jul. 03 2007,14:27)
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But that doesn't make them equal in fearlessness to Space Marines. It just means that yes, they get Leader, Commander etc.

But they're not equal, because it can be removed.

Is this a "sacredness of the Space Marines" argument against it?  No one can be "as good" as them?

I just thought it was an interesting way to show another "elite" force.

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orangesm
 Post subject: [Black Crusade] Cadian army lists
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 3:04 pm 
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What I meant by switch the Kasrkins and the White Shields in the Defense list was make the White Shields a core Company while the Kasrkins can only be taken for every company of either Infantry or White Shields take.




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Chroma
 Post subject: [Black Crusade] Cadian army lists
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 3:06 pm 
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(Hena @ Jul. 03 2007,15:01)
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I think that you are looking at this way too detailed. They don't need any special rules. Look at the Stormtroopers. Just better weapons and stat values will do in these cases. Not every single detail in 40k needs to show up in this scale ...

Well, I just looked up "They Shall Know No Fear..." in 40k and it's *WAY* better than "Iron Discipline", so I'll be cutting that out.

The "1 extra BM" doesn't seem worth it as a special rule at all.

Thanks for the input all!

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Chroma
 Post subject: [Black Crusade] Cadian army lists
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 3:08 pm 
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(orangesm @ Jul. 03 2007,15:04)
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What I meant by switch the Kasrkins and the White Shields in the Defense list was make the White Shields a core Company while the Kasrkins can only be taken for every company of either Infantry or White Shields take.

The thing is, the Whiteshields are a "cheap" formation, and taking a few of them allows the Cadian player then to bulk up on support formations.

I'm leary of letting the Whiteshields be a Company formation.

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orangesm
 Post subject: [Black Crusade] Cadian army lists
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 3:18 pm 
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What about making a single Cadian list instead of two list?  Either Strike or Defensive.  I like the idea of doing the Cadian list as the Heavy Infantry Strike/Defense Force, but only 1 list - we can use the other Strike/Defense for another list.

Right now you have two list that draw on Codex: EoT and Codex: IG for their background and rules, but I think I can replicate most of what the list provides using Mechanized or Siegemasters.

Imperial Guard List:
Steel Legion - Mechanized
Baran - Defensive Siege
Tallarn - Armored
Krieg - Offensive Siege
Elysians - Elite Airborne
Cadian (1) - Elite Mechanized
Cadian (2) - Elite Defensive Siege

So at the moment I think taking them a slightly different way from just being an Elite form of something we already have.

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Chroma
 Post subject: [Black Crusade] Cadian army lists
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 3:29 pm 
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(orangesm @ Jul. 03 2007,15:18)
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So at the moment I think taking them a slightly different way from just being an Elite form of something we already have.

But isn't that, essentially, what the Cadians are?  The "elite" Imperial Guard?

Since my plan was to put the Cadians in the "Black Crusade" sourcebook I'm putting together, their focus is on their Eye of Terror behaviours/organization.

Both army lists have infanty as their "core" formations, so that's a bit different from other IG lists (well, aside from Baran!  *laugh*).  As well, my idea for putting two lists from the same "army" was to give an example at how army list organization, using the same basic units, can give quite different play experiences.

What other "types" of IG organization would you suggest orangesm?

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orangesm
 Post subject: [Black Crusade] Cadian army lists
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 3:44 pm 
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I am trying to think of just that - what other types of IG organizations would work well.

What about doing a single list - have the Kasrkins be Mechanized while the core Infantry is not?  The Kasrkin Companies represent the Mechanized Strike component of the Cadian force while the core Infantry and such are defending their Bastions.

Will Ulthwe get in Black Crusade?

*Why was my name bolded?




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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: [Black Crusade] Cadian army lists
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 3:45 pm 
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Cadians aren't particularly Elite... they're just highly geared for war.

The consequence is, they have *lots* of troops. Elite veterans (Kasrkin), and hordes of conscripts (Whiteshields... hardly 'elite'!).


PS: Your Whiteshields really should have their own statline.

Something like, no ranged gun, and FF6+. All other stats the same as normal IG.

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: [Black Crusade] Cadian army lists
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 3:51 pm 
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My version of Iron Discipline as in my GeneralmperialGuard list:+

Iron Discipline
Formations require one more Blastmarker than remaining units to break (+50 points for Companies, + 25 points for Support Formations). Can?t combined with Chem-Inhalers.

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