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Bombards poll and review
No change 48%  48%  [ 15 ]
Reduce Cost (specify below) 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Increase range (specify below) 19%  19%  [ 6 ]
Remove Slow Firing 3%  3%  [ 1 ]
Increase BP 3%  3%  [ 1 ]
Allow in Artillery Companies 19%  19%  [ 6 ]
Other (specify below) 6%  6%  [ 2 ]
Total votes : 31

Bombards poll and review
okpjay890
 Post subject: Bombards poll and review
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:59 am 
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Increase the range of the bombard to 60cm will be nice. For all the reasons evocated in the post of Hojyn.

Jay

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GrayDL
 Post subject: Bombards poll and review
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 2:34 pm 
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(okpjay890 @ Jul. 17 2007,10:59)
QUOTE
Increase the range of the bombard to 60cm will be nice. For all the reasons evocated in the post of Hojyn.

Jay

Range 60 would be great.

Some other points to consider for small scale performance tuning.

Increase armour to 5+ (IMHO this would also be supported by the models)

Reduce Manticore to FF6+. (Its main weapon is of no use in a firefight)

Small changes, but would give the Bombards an advantage in some situations.
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Blarg D Impaler
 Post subject: Bombards poll and review
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 8:13 pm 
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I've been tinkering around with my spreadsheets and formulas and I decided to compare the Basilisk, Bombard, and the Manticore.  I figure that if you are going to have these three be worth the same number of points they should be equal in capability.

I also feel that, unless there is a need or reason for it, units in Epic: Armageddon should try to closely resemble their incarnations from previous versions of the game.  Namely, Space Marines and Titan Legions (SM/TL).

So I ran the weapons for all three of these artillery through my formulas.  I don't want to go into detail about my results because I rather unsure if am handling the dual-fire ability of the Basilisk correctly and the Disrupt special ability of the Manticore correctly.  I *think* I'm handling them correctly, but I'm not willing to stake my reputation on it.  Take these opinions for what you will.

The Bombard should be allowed in Artillery Companies, in my opinion.  In SM/TL you could take companies of Bombards and Basilisks, while the IG also had companies of Manticores and Whirlwinds.  Since the Whirlwind has been declared a Space Marine only weapon (rightfully so) it stands to reason to collapse the ability to take Manticores in companies into a common company formation.  I can't see a reason why not, but I'd love to hear reasons why.  Give me a good reason why they shouldn't be allowed and I'll go with you.

The Bombard has three big problems with it: the range, the firepower, and the Slow Firing restriction.  One or two of these problems have to go.  It also has another problem in that the armor should be increased from 6+ to 5+, especially since the range is rather short compared to the other two artillery.   Here are my two suggestions:

Option 1) Increase the range and firepower, leave the Slow Fire restriction.

Imperial Guard Bombard
Type: Armoured Vehicle
Speed: 20cm
Armour: 5+
Close Combat: 6+
Fire Fight: 5+

Siege Mortar
Range: 90cm
Firepower: 3BP
Ignore Cover, Slow Firing, Indirect Fire

Heavy Bolter
Range: 30cm
Firepower: AP5+

Option 2) Smaller increase to the range, remove the Slow Fire restriction.

Imperial Guard Bombard
Type: Armoured Vehicle
Speed: 20cm
Armour: 5+
Close Combat: 6+
Fire Fight: 5+

Siege Mortar
Range: 75cm
Firepower: 2BP
Ignore Cover, Indirect Fire

Heavy Bolter
Range: 30cm
Firepower: AP5+


Side Note: I also think that the Basilisk should be able to indirect fire it's non-barrage shot.

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Dwarf Supreme
 Post subject: Bombards poll and review
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 8:26 pm 
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(Blarg D Impaler @ Jul. 27 2007,15:13)
QUOTE
I also feel that, unless there is a need or reason for it, units in Epic: Armageddon should try to closely resemble their incarnations from previous versions of the game. ?Namely, Space Marines and Titan Legions (SM/TL).

Option 2) Smaller increase to the range, remove the Slow Fire restriction.

Imperial Guard Bombard
Type: Armoured Vehicle
Speed: 20cm
Armour: 5+
Close Combat: 6+
Fire Fight: 5+

Siege Mortar
Range: 75cm
Firepower: 2BP
Ignore Cover, Indirect Fire

Heavy Bolter
Range: 30cm
Firepower: AP5+

You mean I'm not the only one who thinks this?

I vote for option 2, chuck Slow Fire and increase the range a bit. Also, allow them to be taken as a company.




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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Bombards poll and review
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 8:35 pm 
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Yep. Slow-Firing doesn't make sense on the Bombard. On Mantricore yes, because you have to load it again with 4 big missiles but the Bombard is easily breach loadable.

On the same note. Slow-Firing doesn't makes sence on the Demolishers Plasmacannons too.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Bombards poll and review
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 8:36 pm 
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Slow Fire has to stay I think.

It's one of the signiture rules for the Bombard in 40k that it can only fire once every two turns, having half the rate of fire of other artillery (Ie: It has the Epic Slow Fire rule almost verbatim).

On the other hand... maybe those three shots are equal to 2BP in Epic, with no slow firing...



I'm definitely in favour of a range increase, and also allowing them in Artillery Companies.

BP3 would be OTT if the two above were combined (The BP chart doesn't go up to 27, lol).




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Irondeath
 Post subject: Bombards poll and review
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 8:42 pm 
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I fail to see where that rush to increase range, remove slow fire and generally any upping of stats is coming from.

By the poll numbers, there seems to be no consensus on the Bombard needing a major boost.




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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Bombards poll and review
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 8:53 pm 
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Well, 55% were in favour of change of some sort.

It might be worth debating fully, then returning with a more focused poll.

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Blarg D Impaler
 Post subject: Bombards poll and review
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 9:32 pm 
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(BlackLegion @ Jul. 27 2007,15:35)
QUOTE
Yep. Slow-Firing doesn't make sense on the Bombard. On Mantricore yes, because you have to load it again with 4 big missiles but the Bombard is easily breach loadable.

On the same note. Slow-Firing doesn't makes sence on the Demolishers Plasmacannons too.

I thought it was rather funny that they modeled the newer Bombard to show it as a breach loader.  Most short barreled mortars are muzzle loaders, but I have read about some large caliber Soviet/Russian mortars that are breach loaders.  (I think it was a side-loading breach, IIRC.)

The plasma cannons on the Demolisher are slow fire because there is a general trend with GW to make all plasma weapons slow fire, with some exceptions.  It's funny that you should mention the Demolisher because I just re-ran its numbers in my spreadsheet and it went from more powerful than the stock LRuss to less powerful.  I wanted to think about it some more before I went any further, I'm afraid I may have to re-think my stance on the Demolisher cannon, Demolisher Tank, and possibly the Vindicator... Oh well.

But hey, back on topic!  Let's change that awful Bombard!

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Bombards poll and review
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 9:44 pm 
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I other news, I've bought a set of Leman Russ Thunderers so I can convert myself a few modern looking Bombards. :)

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Soren
 Post subject: Bombards poll and review
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 11:51 pm 
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Bombard is very good as it is. No need of change imho. It depends always on the  mission what is better, Bombard or Manticore. Both have their good mission areas, both have bad mission areas.

Leave them, they are not only good on paper, but also on the battlefield.

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