I don't think you're reading me correctly there, mate

By itself it's a critical that isn't as bad as most warengines due to the nature of the formation it ends up in with the numbers to hold ground. Coupled with the currently low cost and high DC and good speed and you've got the best transport in the game. Contrast that with say a Stormlord (overcosted and slow). Matt's on the right track with the added critical making the carried troops sitting in a deathtrap on a penetrating hit as shrapnel bounces around.

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Oh I read you right mate

I agree that the immobilised crit seems rubbish when compared to any other 3DC war engine in the game. However, immobilised + D6 cas and suddenly, a crit on a gorgon actually means something.
The ability of the Gorgon to move is IMPERATIVE for the usefullness of the formation.
Believe me, I'm well aware of the Krieg conga line of doom (having seen it many times before) but it does lessen the ability of the Gorgon to shield this supposed attrition based formation.

I've seen way too many games with the Krieg player finishing the game without losing a single stand of the armourless guardsmen. Anything that can help prevent the formation from having 4+RA on the first hits to the formation is a good thing.

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Oh i'm so with you on having both!

Hell I'm not even a fan of the 3 gorgon deathstars. As the numbers increase they become disproportionate more powerful in the game. You simply can't shift them without burning recockulous numbers of activations. 20 infantry stands is more than enough.

Onyx is also spot on that having 10 unit scout formations in core is going to open up for abuse. The centerpiece should be the infantry companies

For the record, I'm less concerned with any of the suggestions being trialed / advocated versus the sheer number at once being advocated. I'd try and focus on them more incremental (and by being smaller you don't got to bust the whole list to experimental as well) and try gorgons cost hike + update crits. We can get 6 games and take that to be approved without starting at 18. Then tackle the next set, if needed.

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Nope, the Battlefortress would still have it beat, IMO. Destroy 12 stands of infantry unless they roll a 6+, plus it can land on and take out other friendlies (and possibly enemies if they're engaged with it).

I don't want to see the Gorgon become as useless as the Battlefortress, just putting things in perspective.

Agreed.

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Howdy!

First of all, Thank you for your efforts Matt. I like the direction the list has taken and it's great now as i've made a start on my own army which has yet to see the table.

For anyone that's interested, This is the list i plan to be playtesting in the coming weeks.

Regimental HQ company [400]
Nineteen Death Korps Infantry units plus Supreme commander, 2 gorgons - Commissar
Formation total = 575pts

Infantry Company[300]
Nineteen death korps Infantry units, commander, 2 gorgons - Commissar
Formation total = 475pts

Grenadiers Platoon [250]
Ten death korps Grenadier units, Gorgon - Commissar
Formation total = 325pts

Death Rider scouts [150]
6 x death riders - Commissar
Formation total = 150pts

Heavy Tank Platoon – Macharius [350]
One Macharius Command and two Macharius, Commissar
Formation total = 350pts

Heavy Support Battery [125]
Hydra Battery + Trojans
Formation Total = 125pts

Heavy Support Battery [200]
Three Earthshaker platforms + Trojans
Formation Total = 200pts

Deathstrike Missile Silo [250]
Formation Total = 250pts

Tank Platoon [280]
6 x leman russ - Commissar
Formation Total = 400pts

Thunderbolts [150]
Formation Total = 150pts

10 activations, 3,000pts



I'd like to echo what a few people have suggested and perhaps we could trial no singular warhounds and a slight reduction in cost to the macharius formation as a trade off and hopefully that might see more tanks seen in the dkok over multiple single warhounds.

Cheers guys,

Sam

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Howdy all.
Sorry I missed opening night with the DKOK!

Matt Shadowlord, love the changes. Sign me up for playtesting.

Keen on the 19th fudd?

Sounds good mate.

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I'm catching up with this later than I would have after being on holiday for a few weeks. Good to see the list and some sensible changes to reduce the overall power of the list.

Good to see the reduction in CC and cost increase. The D6 deaths Gorgon critical is a mixed bag and could sometimes be better than the existing immobilised. It does need a worse critical but I'd much prefer to make the change Epic-Uk are doing to it - immobilised plus D3 units onboard suffer a hit. I'm not convinced the one-shot Mortars are so good and in need of a further cost increase. I'd probably scrap the HB version like Epic-UK did but not charge more again for the Mortars. The Gorgon's notes should state it looses it's Heavy Bolter attacks and FF5+ if the Mortars are taken, this is missing at the moment.

Please drop the Macharius points by at least 25! The DK are known to use them in large numbers and the DK list is the only list they're in, but they're obviously overpriced at the moment.

I very strongly disapprove of dropping the artillery company – bring it back! DK are known to use artillery way in their armies way MORE than other guard. There are multiple illustrations in the Vraks books of company strength artillery companies too. Them not having it makes no sense and goes against the DK theme.

They were a bit overcosted at 125 but why drop the Hellhounds? Flame tanks are very characterful and make a lot of sense for attacking trenches. The DK certainly used Hellhounds on Vraks, plus they are known to use specially modified 'Malcador Infernuses' that fire close range poison gas (I'd planned to convert some to counts as Hellhounds).

Death Riders – first off I'd like to bring up their stats. Rough Riders in Epic with their two attacks are considerably more potent relative to other units than they should be based on a translation of their 40k stats. I believe there was discussion back in the day that RR were too good and should be reduced to only a single first strike attack rather than having it as well as a normal attack. It was in the context of this that DR were given their single attack as a sort of trial for a probable Rough Rider change, but things moved on and Rough Riders never were changed (and are highly likely never to be). In 40k a Death Rider isn't half as good at CC attacking as a Rough Rider, they're roughly the same with the Death Rider actually being very slightly better. Epic-UK scrapped made their Death Riders equally powerful in attack as the Rough Riders, scrapped the 0-1 restriction but made them 12 for 325. Please could we keep them core and do the same? There something about vast hordes of horse-men being thrown into the enemy guns that fits the DK / WW theme well. I normally take 2 DR companies at 3k and some of the list builds I take wouldn't be possible now which would be a shame.

The Heavy Marauder is a bit too good at 150 and I suggest it should cost 175. I used 6 individual Heavy Marauders in a 3k game before and they could overwhelm enemy air defences and be more casual about flak with their 2DC.

I really don't think Grenadiers should be a core unit. In the Vraks books they're used in support or to spear-head attacks not fielded as entire armies. Competitive armies could be built around lots of Grenadiers, without taking regular DK infantry at all, adding new potentially overpowered builds for no good reason.

Quad Lauchers definitely shouldn't suddenly have a good AT value! – they've got less ability to hurt a tank in 40k than a Heavy Bolter does. Heavy Mortars are meant to be the identical weapon as on a Griffon and to be very short ranged. Rather than messing with appropriate stats which people are long used to for these units would it not be a lot better to just reduce their cost slightly instead? Cost them at 175 with their previous stats and they'd be fine.

The previous stats for the Engineers were more appropriate – their high CC was due to the acidic gas grenades they carry as standard in 40k which are deadly in assaults, plus they can be upgraded with Demolition Charges and/or Melta Bombs. They carry shotguns and have a singly S5 heavy weapon per 5 – same weaponry as SM Scouts – so FF5+ is what you'd expect.

Centaurs previously dropped from 35cm to 20cm move when towing heavy artillery pieces behind them. Hopefully this was just accidentally missed off and it will be changed back? In the 40k DK list a Centaur is a fast vehicle, but looses this speed ability when towing an artillery piece (which don't look designed to go very fast with their thick clunky metal wheels). The light artillery formations don't need speed and it encourages/allows a player to do uncharacteristic and unlikely things with them like making 105cm late game triples to grab objectives rather than staying still and shooting.

I'd like to see singleton Warhounds dropped from the list to focus more on Krieg things.

I think it would be a very good idea for the Deathsrike Silo to have it's notes state it can only fire one missile per turn, particularly as it's immobile so can be garrisoned on overwatch. Less important but I think the Deathstrike Silo would be better 2DC with a small save, say 5+. It would make it a little easier to take out or break as most likely the DK player will likely place it in area terrain out of sight if possible anyway.

I'll do some playtesting for you in time, once I'm back in the UK and have things sorted.

Hi all,
I’ve been following this thread closely and It’s really good to see healthy debate on list design. I can see a lot of good arguments being put forward to balance some of the issues such as Gorgons and Warhounds.
The only issue I really have so far is the changes to the core rough rider choice. I think moving them from core to support is a significant mistake for both the character and balance of the list. My biggest question really is why are they even being moved? The proposal to replace them with grenadiers leaves the list with 3 core optionals that are just slight variations of each other, not terribly exciting and certainly not flexible. Given that the possibility for abuse has already been highlighted I don’t think this is a reasonable alternative.

Replacing them with a tank option IMO doesn’t work either because you ultimately just end up with a list that is too similar to Steel legion. Those rough riders are the most unique and interesting part of the DKOK core units.
I think they should stay exactly as they are in the current Net EA list, core units, no scouting.

I understand the purpose of this process is to improve balance, thus the potential changes to things like gorgons and warhounds. I’m yet to see any real evidence to support the need for such a fundamental restructuring of the core options.

On a related note I also don’t think that the Silo should be single shot. Having it slow fire made it interesting and worth protecting. Making two of them and SS is unnecessary.



I'd love to agree with you Glyn but 12 riders for 325pts is nuts. Translations of stats or old arguments are not a good reason to make changes. What matters is the importance of the unit in the context of the army and IMO they ain't broke so don't fix them! Gaurd units are supposed to gain value in larger formations to offset the loss of activations. Gaurd need lots of activations to offset the crappy strategy rating that basically means we will always get ravaged in the opening moves of a turn and need to make up for this in the later ones etc. Either that or we just take titans...

From someone with a lot of rough riders I am terrified to see the Rough Rider company removed.
Esp. since the latest 40k Krieg rules allows for large rough rider formations.

They are integral in 40k and should be in Epic as well.

I too thinks we should go for incremental changes and look at the bigger picture here. Most people don't think Krieg is very competitive in Epic. Some changes are needed, but sweeping?

P.S: I would love to see Praetor and Crassus rules..

Ignore my earlier comment. GlynG says most of the things I feel.

To summarize: Gorgons probably need the priceadjustment and the Epic-UK crit.

The CC inf reduction might be necessary, not a big change either way really…

Drop the macharius in points by ta least 25.

Dont drop artillery company or mortars. Make light art cheaper.

Death Riders should have two attacks, there is no reason at all thet they should be less dangerous than other RR which are not overpowered either. Points should go up maybe as much as the Epic-UK version, maybe just to 300. They should remain core they are more fluffy and iconic there than the grenaiders.

Deathstrike silo – agree one missle/turn or slow firing and 2DC would make it more balanced

I'd see the argument for dropping single Warhounds but can´t really motivate it fluff wise.

I will playtest soon!

Another point: with rough rider companies now counting as support formations, you can't really reliably field a couple of them. Each company only allow for two support formations. So if you take two regular infantry companies and two rough rider companies you just have a total of 2 support formations left. That's not very balanced IMHO.

Really dropping the Arty Coy and Hellhounds? A siege regiment without Arty seems quite odd and hellhounds are used on vraks frequently.

There will still be artillery, just not in a company sized formation, not a great loss as no one uses them in competitive games! Nothing to stop you using them in casual games, dames goes gor Helhounds.

To make it clear, if the DKoK list is not nerfed and streamlined it will loose it's tournament approved status at the next big tournament pack revision.

We mostly want to hear about play testing and tournament experience for the time being rather than what's in the fluff and 28mm list which is in constant flux.

Just to follow up on what Koshi just wrote about.
When I talked about Rough Riders being fluffy it was not the argument that they should be in because they were fluffy but rather that they shouldn't be removed because they are not.

My argument for keeping rough riders is that the Krieg list will suffer for having so limited choices as companies and just two support units for each. If these changes are kept they should have 3 support units for each company. But preferably keep rough riders as a company option.
The risk is that all Krieg lists will look almost exactly the same if RR are removed as a company option. In fact artillery companies should be added to the company list too.

If Krieg er too powerful then find other ways to address the issue. The proposals here seem a bit like when a Ferrari is driving too fast you remove the engine and wheels rather than tuning it down.

I don't think the list will be more balanced either by removing warhounds. It is far better to look at power levels and pricing of those things that are included.