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Proposed Cadia ver2.0

 Post subject: Re: Proposed Cadia ver2.0
PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2021 2:23 pm 
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I’m aware 200pts Griffins/Basalisks are exceptionally good value, but their role is limited, and they’re up against strong alternatives. If we see them abused they can go up but I’m keen to see features (including points) which differentiate Guard lists from one another rather than them being different combinations of toys from the same box. However, the Basalisks in this list have 6+ armour as they don’t have the enclosed crew compartments those in the Steel Legion list, that needs to be made more clear!

The above is why I’m keen to see the Shadowsword go from the list (for a rare tank it seems pretty ubiquitous!) or at least be included in a different way to normal. A points hike is an option, maybe as a 25pt upgrade option rather than a separate formation. Another might be to include a 500pt Shadowsword Company as a 1/3 support option, this appeals as it stresses their role as an anti-Titan asset. Or we can leave them be for the time being!

The Stormlord upgrade needs a points hike, 100pts is too cheap.

Regular Sentinels have “Scout” making them far superior to Cadian Sentinels (which don’t!). Cadian Sentinels offer very little to the list TBH, they don’t have much of a role. Hydra Batteries are a much better 150pt choice as they’re faster, have more firepower, and AA.

Given Kasrkin are a key and feature formation I’m considering a Kasrkin Commander stand, this would give them access to “Commander” opening lots of in game possibilities, they’ve also been requested. It might be a nice option for the regular Infantry Company for players to be able to interchange between a regular infantry commander and a Kasrkin commander at no cost.

I’ll do a small update soon with the Stormlord upgrade points hike (it’s urgent!), I’ll fill out the list with more stats then. From memory ver1.56 is version which can before 2.0.


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 Post subject: Re: Proposed Cadia ver2.0
PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2021 2:43 pm 
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Ah I missed the fact they don't have scout. I still say 5+ armour isn't justified by their 40k stats and they should drop to 6+ but the cost seems fine without scout as that makes them a lot less useful.

I like the idea of a Kasrkin command stand for Kasrkin. I see them as separate elites though and I would prefer the standard infantry company not to have the option to be led by a Kasrkin stand.

Reserving Shadowswords for a Company only and out of the 1/3 could also be a good option. I don't have a strong opinion on which the best option is for them but I would prefer them to still be in the list in some fashion.

Fair enough with the 6+ Basiliks. Time and testing will tell if they seem ok or too cheap.

Something else I spotted - the Marauder Colossus definitely shouldn't be a 2 DC War Engine in the list if the regular Marauder in the list isn't. The two aircraft models are 95% identical, just with a big bomb below and minor differences in secondary armament.

Many years ago E&C and others (myself included at the time) pushed for Marauders generally to be changed to 2DC WE to fit the size and stats of the modern 40k models and this got added to the Krieg list that E&C managed at the time with the hope this was a trial that would end up getting replicated in all lists. This Marauder change wasn't taken up generally by either Net-EA or Epic-UK though and could be considered a failed idea that perhaps should now be abandoned. For consistency and WYSIWYG reasons the two near identical Marauder types in the list should either both be WE or neither WE (I'd suggest the latter but you could do either).


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 Post subject: Re: Proposed Cadia ver2.0
PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2021 4:45 pm 
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glad I could help prove a point rug! Given GlynG's reasoning above I agree, we should bring the marauders into some sort of consistence, all of it variants are the same platform just with slight weapon mods. I'm on the side of h0aving them as non-WE as much as these things are large, I have never felt that they are big enough to justify the war engine stat.

I'm going to continue messing with lists and see if I can make anything else problematic. Ill try to think of different ways to use the shadowswords, but that is always difficult because they are just to excellent of an option at 200 points. ill try something with the griffons, i wanna see if I can fully abuse the whitesheild upgrade.

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed Cadia ver2.0
PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2021 9:09 pm 
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here's what I came up with for the list i wanna test out. I don't think the downside of the whitesheild upgrade is balanced, and I do believe I can push that activation count further and still be effective. On top of that I did some counting, I would need at least 132 guard stands(infy and whitesheild) just to fill out the infy coys

Reg HQ -700( kas plt and 3 battle psykers)
infy co - 300 (with two white shield platoons and sabers at 50 pnt)
infy co - 300 (with two white shield platoons and sabers at 50 pnt)
infy co - 250 (with three white shield platoons)
infy co - 250 (with three white shield platoons)
moblie arty - 200 (griffon option)
mobile arty - 200 (griffon option)
mobile arty - 200 (basilisk option)
mobile arty - 200 (basilisk option)
shadowsword - 200
shadowsword - 200

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed Cadia ver2.0
PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2021 9:51 pm 
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That list wouldn't be legal - you can't normally take multiples of the same upgrade on a formation. One White Shield upgrade per formation is fine but not two or three. There's normally a line of text stating this in every army list.

It does look like this text might have been missed off the Cadian list but I'm almost certain this would be by accident and the standard upgrade text of 'Up to three company upgrades may be taken once per company' should apply. That's how the Steel Legion list is and pretty much all the other lists in the tournament pack.


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 Post subject: Re: Proposed Cadia ver2.0
PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2021 10:41 pm 
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that would solve the problem completely

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed Cadia ver2.0
PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2021 1:55 am 
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Good spot, max of one of each upgrade, I’ll make sure that’s clear in the update.

I wouldn’t be too concerned about facing that list (once made legal), it’s a bit slow, low on AA, and has a lot of Int3+ to try to make work, it doesn’t have much by way of offensive capability either (how does it engage anything?). Artillery and Volcano cannon are odd weapons in that they’re great against the right targets, but next to useless against other things, particularly with nothing to follow up. 11 activations is pretty standard for Steel Legion but I think they’d have a lot more to work with.

I’d like to see someone try to flood the board with cheap teleporting formations, that might mess things up!


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 Post subject: Re: Proposed Cadia ver2.0
PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2021 4:05 am 
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ill give it a look! Also agreed post making this list legal its not great, it fathered relied on that brick of infy I could tie people down with

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed Cadia ver2.0
PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2021 12:44 pm 
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RugII wrote:
Another might be to include a 500pt Shadowsword Company as a 1/3 support option, this appeals as it stresses their role as an anti-Titan asset.

.


I was going to propose that, since the higher cost isn't justified (are they better than in Krieg, Steel Legion, etc???)

RugII wrote:

Given Kasrkin are a key and feature formation I’m considering a Kasrkin Commander stand, this would give them access to “Commander” opening lots of in game possibilities, they’ve also been requested. It might be a nice option for the regular Infantry Company for players to be able to interchange between a regular infantry commander and a Kasrkin commander at no cost.

.


At last!!! I've been asking for that for ages!!! it goes with the theme :D

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed Cadia ver2.0
PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2021 7:55 pm 
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took a stab at the karskin platoon spam, was able to fit 6 plts of Kas, I got 11 activaitons in total
750- HQ with 2 bat pyskers and a ks plt and a infy plt
2* 375 - infy company with whitesheilds, sabers, support plt
6* 200 - kas plt
2*150 - thunderbolt flight
tot: 3000k

gotta say this list has a few routes, massed teleportation(might be a problem if the platoons get a free commander), massed garrison (that might be a problem), and a mix of the two garrisoning some Kas while teleporting some other ones when needed. The being said at the end of the day I don't know how well the teleporting Kas will shake out, on one hand you have a lot of teleports, but on the other hand they have a mediocre save and need to come in packs of more than one formation.

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed Cadia ver2.0
PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2021 10:37 pm 
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I just noticed Kasrkin have teleport. What the heck’s the justification for this? They’re not known for being any more stealthy than Storm Troopers in other guard lists and don’t have any sort of teleport rule in 40k. They don’t have actual teleporters or jump pack from orbit or anything. I’d strongly prefer to remove teleport from them, Kasrkin have 3 good transport options and teleport as well is unnecessary and potentially abusive and annoying for opponents.


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 Post subject: Re: Proposed Cadia ver2.0
PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2021 10:52 pm 
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See the first post, it’s to represent Grav-Chutes.

Edited for typos...

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Last edited by IJW Wartrader on Fri Jan 22, 2021 11:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed Cadia ver2.0
PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2021 11:07 pm 
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But Kasrkin aren't particularly known for using Grav shutes? No more than Storm Troopers of other guard lists who don't have the option in their rules. Vannaheim (basically Elysians with a different name) don't even have it in their Epic rules.


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 Post subject: Re: Proposed Cadia ver2.0
PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2021 11:16 pm 
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looking at the list again I can easily setup cross fires alla round the board in one turn. It would be worse if I could pick up a commander free or not, now I can just have a company's worth of teleporting kas that can all assault one target of my choosing. The only drawback teleport is the guards low strategy rating, and the fact that they only have a 5+. also teleport gives the player complete control on how the formation comes in. also why not self-planet fall to represent the grav-shutes? I think it could lean into the flexible nature of the Kasarkin but not make the formation completely busted.

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed Cadia ver2.0
PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2021 11:28 am 
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GlynG wrote:
But Kasrkin aren't particularly known for using Grav shutes? No more than Storm Troopers of other guard lists who don't have the option in their rules. Vannaheim (basically Elysians with a different name) don't even have it in their Epic rules.

From memory, they've all had Grav-Chute options in assorted editions of 40k, but I was just pointing out the reason listed by the OP, not agreeing or disagreeing!

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