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'Fix' for marine infantry
The points drop/rise described below and Thunderhawks +25 14%  14%  [ 3 ]
The points drop/rise described below and Thunderhawks +50 19%  19%  [ 4 ]
No, leave as is 67%  67%  [ 14 ]
Total votes : 21

'Fix' for marine infantry
The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: 'Fix' for marine infantry
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 5:46 am 
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The idea was mooted which I've got to try once but a couple of friends back home have tried more, that Tactical, Devestator and Assault marine formations in the main list should have their points decreased by 25 and the Thunderhawk points cost increased by 25. Well 25 or 50 depending on playtest. Net result is (with a rise of 50) no change int he cost of air assaults, but a decrease in ground costs. For an infantry heavy army you could squeeze in perhaps another assault or dev formation as a result, or get a few more leaders.

Certainly it makes Assault more worth while on the ground. The thunderhawk option doesn't change but 150 points is a bit more flexible for what I reckon is the most fragile of units (yes, dive into close combat my brve little marines!). Devs and tacs are a bit less clear, but as a concept its novel and the details can be tweaked.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: 'Fix' for marine infantry
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 11:05 am 
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Yep this was indeed my proposal, and believe it or not it goes a long way towards fixing ground-based Marine armies, without the need for a second 'ground-pounder' list.

It's not even a particularly radical piece of list surgery.

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netepic
 Post subject: 'Fix' for marine infantry
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 12:03 pm 
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My marines have always fared exceptionally well as a ground pounder army :). I tend to max out on grunts, i'm an infantry man at heart.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: 'Fix' for marine infantry
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 3:39 pm 
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Not every formation benefits equally from being air dropped.  A "standardized" point change won't result in balance.

Devs - no
Tacs - maybe
Assault - yes
Scouts - probably not
Bikes - no

Devs - They work okay on the ground as-is and don't need a point cut.  Due to total resultant expense they are a decent but not overpowered option for Thawks.  If you increase air transport costs, then they become more expensive as an air assault, possibly overcosting them in that role.

Tacs - I think they are okay on the ground but I can see arguments for a slight point cut (no more than 25 points).  They gain more from air assault than Devs but not as much as Assault.  I could understand a +25/-25 trade here though I don't know it's needed.

Assault - Too expensive to field on the ground.  They only become viable in air assaults because they gain so much more than other forces.  However, if you drop them 25 points, you have to increase the Thawk by 50 points in order for a 2xAssault air drop to come out to the same points.  +50 points on the Thawk could put it out of reasonable use by other formations.

Scouts - They are so cheap already that -25 points cuts them by 1/6 of their cost.  They are pretty good on the ground as-is so dropping their cost that much would probably be too much.  Same issue as the Assault Marines when it comes to +50 on the Thawk to make it come out the same.

Bikes - Already a very good buy for the list.  Definitely no price cut in order.  The formation doesn't fit in the stock list very well due to formation size, so it's probably not an issues anyway.  The White Scars Thawk-o-bikes got good reviews (though I haven't seen any batreps with them in more than a year).  Since I suspect a 25-50 point discount is in order for them anyway, that would actually be okay with a Thawk increase.

==

Basically, no matter what the combo is, there will some units that are never taken in air assault or some units that are always taken in air assault.  The best you can do is adjust to make for the best overall picture.  Personally, I think that Assault Marines are the sticking point because of the disproportionate air assault benefits they gain.

Do you prefer Assault Marines not work on the ground or Devs not work in the air?

Is it worth it to make the 2xassault/thawk combo 25 points cheaper overall?  Will that make it disproportionately prevalent compared to the current pricing?

If you make assault/thawk combo the same price, is adding +25 or +50 to the other air combos going to stop them from being viable?

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: 'Fix' for marine infantry
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 3:47 pm 
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My full pricing nudges list was something like:


Tacticals -25pts
Assault Marines -25pts
Devestators -25pts    possible
Scouts leave as-is
Bikes grant -10pts per Attack Bike chosen

Thunderhawks +25 or 50pts

Drop Pods +25pts instead of free.


Allow Assault Marines in Drop Pods.


That's the core of my proposals, with a few others I'd like to see as regards the Marine vehicles.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: 'Fix' for marine infantry
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 3:49 pm 
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is adding +25 or +50 to the other air combos going to stop them from being viable?


Obviously, the ideal solution would be to find the balance that results in the widest possible number of 'viable' formation deployments.

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pixelgeek
 Post subject: 'Fix' for marine infantry
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 4:47 pm 
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I don't think that the Marines would "realistically" be used in any situation other than air assaults or drop pod assaults.

They are fast attack elite troops that are meant to be inserted into a battle to capture specific locations.

The only time that a large ground force makes sense to me, and sense in terms of the fluff, is for Horus Heresy periods when the Marines were the core army and did large scale conflicts.

In the E:A time period the Marines are no longer the primary ground force and are never depicted as a large scale force.

Its an inherent problem with the game in terms of Marines and trying to keep them in character. A Chapter of 1000 troops that is split off into small 100 man Companies is never going to be used to stand on a field and fight a horde of Orks or a whole Chaos army.

I think that the current list should be rebranded and re-focused as an air assault/drop pod force and that perhaps some efforts are made to actually create an "ally" list that you can use with your Guard or other Imperial armies to create a ground oriented force of Marines.

It was probably a mistake to not take the feedback from the initial E:A playtesting and do something radical to make the SMs work but I think that the current list is never going to work as a ground attack force.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: 'Fix' for marine infantry
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 4:55 pm 
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I don't think that the Marines would "realistically" be used in any situation other than air assaults or drop pod assaults.


Check out the unit descriptions in the E:A rulebook itself... it's full of descriptions of Marines undertaking ground-battles. The list purports to be a multi-role list... it just wasn't playtested in that mode enough to highlight the issues.


the current list is never going to work as a ground attack force.

Check out my proposals above. :D

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: 'Fix' for marine infantry
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 5:17 pm 
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Everyone who is voting 'no change':

Please explain why you feel the ground-based Marine list is a valid build... since the proposals above hardly touch the current airborne build.

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Soren
 Post subject: 'Fix' for marine infantry
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 6:09 pm 
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I don?t want getting the Thawk more (or even less) expensive under any circumstands. We will never get a groundpounder list out of the Marines as they are now. No new price lists will change this. In this point I fully agree with pixelgeek.

The second thing is, I strongly believe there is too much tweaking on existing lists now. There is no time to test, there are no comments but many suggestions and proposals without ever tried it.

I am pretty sure, no I KNOW the Marine list works as it is now and with the changes we are all familiar with. (namely decrease in price of armor detachments, Hunter, increase of termies and Barge costs) as they are sticky in the SG forum.

The only thing for me to discuss is the vindicator, as it is of quesitionable use in the existing list. But this does not need 700 new lists and 500 modifications on other units.

And now my thoughts to the Marine list:

Marines are rapid strike-shock troopers. They are flexible, like CC as they like FF. They are fast, furious and deadly. They have small numbers, but have to be eliminated complete if the enemy wants to win. I also think there HAS to be a Air Assault or Drop Attack in ever Marine list. If you want to play ground pounders, you have to life with the consequences and a decreased effectivity. To squeeze out a ground pounder list out of Marines is like making a Land Rover a F1 car and vice versa. You will never get the results satifying to all.

So let the Drop Marines be Drop Marines. If you want to play tanks, take Guard or TAU or Eldar. If you want to play attrition battles, play Orks or Guard.

I strongly feel WE NEED A SM CHAMPION to get back a line into the development. As ist does now, there are many proposals, many suggestions but no red line through the whole process. This is unsatisfying.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: 'Fix' for marine infantry
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 6:11 pm 
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I strongly feel WE NEED A SM CHAMPION to get back a line into the development. As ist does now, there are many proposals, many suggestions but no red line through the whole process. This is unsatisfying.


I'm with you on that one, if not the main body of your post. :)


I believe it is possible to create a single, balanced list that can undertake both types of operation.




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Soren
 Post subject: 'Fix' for marine infantry
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 6:16 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Jun. 18 2007,18:11)
QUOTE
I strongly feel WE NEED A SM CHAMPION to get back a line into the development. As ist does now, there are many proposals, many suggestions but no red line through the whole process. This is unsatisfying.


I'm with you on that one, if not the main body of your post. :)


I believe it is possible to create a single, balanced list that can undertake both types of operation.

You can?t make a duck being a horse without destroying the attributes of a duck.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: 'Fix' for marine infantry
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 6:22 pm 
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You can?t make a duck being a horse without destroying the attributes of a duck.


It's emminently possible to push points/formation differences to the current list that leave airdrop lists entirely unchanged, yet reconfigure how the ground-based list operates / costs.


Ie: You take a duck, and it can still fly and quack like a duck, but you also give it the option of wearing a cybernetic horse suit.

Yeah, duck metaphors are not suitable. :)

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