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Land Raiders
Dobbsy
 Post subject: Land Raiders
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 2:40 am 
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Are the Land Raiders truely 93.75 points each at the new cost? Leman Russ tanks are 65 points each.

Both have reinforced 4+ armour
Raider has thick rear armour

Russ has 75cm main weapon
Raider has 2x 45cm main weapons

Russ comes in a formation of 10
Raider in a formation of 4

Raider has TSKNF & leader type
Russ can get Commissar

Raider can be air dropped (costing an additional 350 points BTW for a Landing Craft)


Do people still feel Land Raiders are worth the points they are being costed at? If so, is it because of TSKNF that people think they are worth 93.75 points each?

From my experience I know that a 4 unit formation (even with TSKNF and 2 main weapon attacks) is no match for a Russ Formation of 10 tanks that can engage it at 75cms. TSKNF only goes so far, as 10x RA tanks will last longer than 4x RA tanks. If you knock out 3 tanks of that 4 tank formation it's pretty broken regardless of TKSNF. Knock out 3 Russes and you still have a functioning formation (albeit reduced capability). I am beginning to wonder if TKSNF (and the Land Raider) is over costed in the design of the Marines. What makes them so expensive?
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Dobbsy
 Post subject: Land Raiders
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:07 am 
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Sorry Hena you've confused me. Is this another change to the marine list? I didn't think you could buy a formation of 7 or 8 Raiders. There are no upgrades to Raiders except vindicators which would be 2 additional vehicles which equals 6 tanks - 2 with no reinforced armour and very short weaponry.... Also I'm talking base formation size here. Also, can't Russ companies add a 3-tank squadron to the company for 200 points? Don't forget that Commisars give Russes fearless and  leader.

Any way you look at it Russes are cheaper for very little negatives. 5cm movement and TSKNF for raiders is hardly an almost 30 point cost addition given that those Russes can engage them at near twice the Raiders' range.... Look at it this way, Hena, would you try to run 4 Raiders head to head with 10 Russes? Would anyone else? Do people believe Raiders to be a superior formation just because of 5cm move and TSKNF? I'm curious to know. Afterall, you can have as many special rules as you like, what it comes down to in the end is whether you survive a round(s) of shooting.
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Markconz
 Post subject: Land Raiders
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:16 am 
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My question on Landraiders was do they need a 25 or a 50 point discount? After a few games I think that perhaps a 50 point discount might be necessary to see them fielded more.  25 on a 400 point formation just doesn't seem to be enough of an incentive.

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Dobbsy
 Post subject: Land Raiders
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:20 am 
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for sure Hena, but 28.75 points per vehicle? what if those russes are in cover too? You have to look at it from a purely equal footing perspective. And you're overlooking that for 650 you get 2.5 times as many vehicles with 75cm range! :D

Markconz - I am beginning to think that myself 350 = 87.5 per vehicle which is much more feasible.

Marines just dont cut it anymore. they are constantly outnumbered and heavier firepower will win out in the end. TKSNF is not the be all and end all when you have no troops left. Heck, in our game on the weekend we were contemplating trying all Marine formations drop by at least 25 points in cost.
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Markconz
 Post subject: Land Raiders
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 8:25 am 
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It's not just the AT thing. Landraiders are basically ineffective against infantry  whereas Russ will take them apart.  Much more flexibility and usefulness in a Russ.

I think 12.5% discount is probably a little bit too much of a discount on Landraiders, but closer to the mark than than a 6.25% discount. I wonder how other people have been finding them?

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Land Raiders
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 8:51 am 
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I have played 4 strong LandRaider formations with one LandRaider swapped for a LandRaider Helios. The Whrilwind launcher on it gives the formation the much needed AP firepower.
It was the only game out of 3 i fielded LandRaiders where they where actually a useful formation.
In the other games they died against LandSpeeders...with FF5+ they are barely a match against one LandSpeeder formation. And each casualty REALLY hurts.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Land Raiders
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 9:48 am 
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Heck, in our game on the weekend we were contemplating trying all Marine formations drop by at least 25 points in cost.


Heh, that's my proposal. :D



Yeah Land Raiders are overpriced. My gut says they should be around the 85pt mark (As an upgrade, as well as in a formation).

Predators and especially Vindicators are also somewhat overpriced.


Whirlwinds are costed fine though, IMHO.

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Dobbsy
 Post subject: Land Raiders
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 3:35 am 
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(Hena @ Jul. 16 2007,09:32)
QUOTE
I've used them in my armoured marine list. Though in general there has been Prometheus and/or Helioses added to it.

See, this is my beef with the lack of a new Marine list and a solid AC and the speed with which things are being done by the ERC... where in the list do these appear?

I'm of a similar thought as you E&C just that I think 87.5 would be simpler - for the sake of points cost synergy -as then you could add two more to the formation of 4 (if that is an option now..???) for 175.
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Dobbsy
 Post subject: Land Raiders
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 6:46 am 
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Maybe the main Marine list should be sorted out before we start making new Marine sub-lists....? This is where I think the problem lies in current Epic design. We can't get main lists right but someone has to go and make a sub-list, so new unit types filter in and then you have the situation where people are playing two different lists and people (like me) are confused by what's actually in the basic marine list.
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