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Attack Bikes
BlackLegion
 Post subject: Attack Bikes
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 4:27 pm 
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So how to fix them?

Currently the proposed changes are:
+5cm speed
change to Infantry, Mounted

But even then some find the AttackBike still not worth their cost.

So what is the role of the Attack Bike on the battlefield?

Even in Wh40k they have the same points cost and units size as LandSpeeders.

Differences are:
- Attack Bikes:
Twinlinked Bolters.
Same stats as Bike (= same stats of a marine but with Toughness 5) but with 2 Wounds and 2 Attacks.
Moves 12" attack move 6" Turbobooster move 24" but then they can't fire any weapons. If moved 18"+ their save becomes an invulnerable save.

- LandSpeeder
Armour value 10 all around (this is the lowes value in the game. Sentinels have the same armour too).
Skimmer.
Fast Vehicle (move 12" and fire primary weapon, move 13"-24" and fire no weapon).

So without weapons upgrades for the LandSpeeder the Attack Bike has more firepower and is able to engange enemies in close combat.
The LandSpeeder only has higher mobility.

On a side note: I never understood why Bikes have such a good CC value. You can't equip them with CC weapons in WH40k but have Chainswords in Epic.  ???




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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Attack Bikes
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 4:33 pm 
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How about either:

- Give a points discount for selecting Attack Bikes (Say, 10pts)

or / and

- Drop normal bike units FF to 5+ (Which gives Attack Bikes comparably more valuable to a bike formation)

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Attack Bikes
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 5:44 pm 
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Just +5cm speed s enough, see past disscussion.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Attack Bikes
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 5:51 pm 
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I'd say update attack bike to FF4+.


It already has FF4+, which is why I suggest downgrading the normal bikes to FF5+ (Makes Attack Bikes comparatively more valuable).


Just +5cm speed s enough

Only if you want the Attack Bike to continue as a BM-laying machine only.

I'd prefer to see it balanced for wider use, if possible.

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Revenant
 Post subject: Attack Bikes
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 5:54 pm 
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(Hena @ Jun. 11 2007,17:30)
QUOTE
I'd say update attack bike to FF4+. This would give them separation from Speeders. Also I really would not like to change to infantry from LV as that would require people to start basing them to units of 3 and there is only one the pack :).

In my rulebook, Attack Bike has FF 4+ ...

???

And 35cm movement will be enought for it.
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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Attack Bikes
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 6:10 pm 
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It's better than land speeders (except no macro) in engages


Which means it's somewhat worse as most opponents will have an armour save normally.


and has shooting attack over the normal bikes.

Which is not particularly effective as compared to, say, Speeders.


The Attack Bike is inferior to normal bikes, and land speeders.


That means either it's overcosted, or needs a stat boost, in order to be a balanced unit for use en-masse.



A 10pts discount will give 5 Attack Bikes for 150pts.

Balanced?




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Soren
 Post subject: Attack Bikes
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 6:49 pm 
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Give em Multimelta upgrade FF5+. This is near to 40k archetype of attack bike.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Attack Bikes
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 6:57 pm 
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(Soren @ Jun. 11 2007,18:49)
QUOTE
Give em Multimelta upgrade FF5+. This is near to 40k archetype of attack bike.

Although that would make them better (Not quite as good as Land Speeders, but better), it's out because the currently-sold model has no Multi-Melta.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Attack Bikes
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 7:01 pm 
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Right now, as E&C rightly pointed out, the only role for Attack Bikes in the list is to place BMs.

That's not to say that is not a very valuable option.  I think the ability to place a BM is sometimes quite underrated.  I find a Bike formation with 1 Attack Bike to be every bit as valuable as straight Bikes.  It is, however, pretty much the only use for Attack Bikes.

As to the goal of making them more general purpose, I'm at a loss for ideas on how to bring them in line for mass use.

I think the +5cm move is bordering on pointless, but by the same token that makes it not worth fighting over.

I'd rather not see them changed from LVs and, more importantly, I don't see that making them mounted infantry changes their role from 1-per-formation BM generator.  Maybe changing them to Infantry would make them enough tougher than Speeders to make up for the relative lack of firepower/FF so people would field 5-Attack Bike formations.  I just rather doubt it.

I think instead ot making them viable for general purpose that infantry unit type would just make them "no brainer" choices for every bike formation.  The goal should not be to get more Attack Bikes on the board, but to make a more varied formation a viable strategic choice.  Making a new formation composition competitive at the expense of making an old one obsolete doesn't do that.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Attack Bikes
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 7:14 pm 
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A 10pts discount will give 5 Attack Bikes for 150pts.

Balanced?



Re-quoted because nobody commented and I'm annoying. :)


That'd hardly change the 'standard' formation cost (You save 10pts, enough to buy a single Tornado for a Speeder squadron), but I think it might make Attack Bike-only formations more attractive.




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wargame_insomniac
 Post subject: Attack Bikes
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 7:26 pm 
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I would be happy enough for them to have mounted infantry. Less liekly to be lost to the odd AT weapon in enemy formation.

How fast are bikes vs attack bikes in W40k? I know the -5cm speed in Epic has frustrated me at times by slowing down my 4 bikes + 1 attack bike formation.

Cheers

James

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Attack Bikes
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 7:27 pm 
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They're the same speed in 40k.

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