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Simple vote - one list or two
Current list plus tweaks (see below for explanation) 63%  63%  [ 27 ]
Combined air/ground list (see below for explanation) 26%  26%  [ 11 ]
Two different air/ground lists (see below for explanation) 12%  12%  [ 5 ]
Total votes : 43

Simple vote - one list or two
The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Simple vote - one list or two
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 4:50 am 
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All discussion can go here - especially off topic rules changes (which the thread seems to have become! :) ).
Discussion

This vote is simply to see what the people at epicomms think.

Go with a few tweaks to the current marine list increasing the viability of ground forces (path of least resistance).

Having a combined list (most changes, maybe new units).

Having two lists, one focussing on Air assault and pointed to reflect that (current list with a couple of tweaks, maybe Ultramarines?), and the other focussing on Ground assaults and pointed/new units to reflect that (new list, prob Imperial Fists).

Oh and I guess I should have added, not fussed, you marine players sort it out!

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Simple vote - one list or two
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 11:59 am 
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I'd go with 1 or 2 (Both with the same intended final result: that of making a single list usable for both purposes, even if option 1 doesn't actually achieve that properly).


Note to all: In philosophy, the 'path of least resistance' is regarded as generally a very bad thing, likely to only result in endless confrontations followed by increasingly desperate compromises, all in order to avoid conflict, yet actually resulting in more conflict due to percieved intransigence.


In essence, the 'path of least resistance' is normally regarded as the path of the self-deluded.


Technically, anyway. :)



EDIT:

Note that the Eldar list has reiceved a complete overhaul along the lines of proposal 2, and this is generally regarded as a massive success.




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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Simple vote - one list or two
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 12:02 pm 
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The tweak creates a better ground force - though it isn't as good as the air force you can still field. For instance the best 'air' army would still beat the best marine 'ground army' in the tweaked list (I think at least).

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alansa
 Post subject: Simple vote - one list or two
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 12:40 pm 
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This is for the Codex Astartes Army list right?

what is the charaterization of this list (in fluff terms) supposed to be? What is it supposed to represent? It represents the default way in which space marines fight (though there are famous exceptions)

For default chapters, they do air drops yeah sure but do they do anything else? If all they do is air drops then Space Marines have a restricted role. Commanders must call upon reserve non space marine units to fill in for the marines once the battle is won and the space marines have been picked up to fight elsewhere.

If the Codex Astartes is more comprehensive, then it must support ground oriented figting. We're using words like 'drop' and 'mud' which focus our minds into two parts:  the codex list supports two styles.

Do any other army lists support multiple styles? yes plenty - but it's less sharply focused and more nebulous for those lists?

All this strongly suggests the List most strongly and convincingly support both styles, and the general consensus is that the 'Mud' style is really lacking: making the drop style the only choice in competetive games.

And that's the problem... We must either arrange things so that, overall, both styles are chosen equally in games,
or
have [B]two codex astartes lists[B]. (forget about chapter specifc lists for the time being eh guys? we're talking about the standrad here)

For the second option we have the same problem: Is the mud list equally as good as the drop list? (or indeeded any other list)

So - I'm inclined to go for the first two options, but overall It might be that option three is actually the simplest way to go.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Simple vote - one list or two
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 12:43 pm 
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According to the rulebook itself, the 'mud marine' option should be just as powerful as the 'air marine' option.

Experience shows us that this is a fallacy.

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Pulsar
 Post subject: Simple vote - one list or two
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 12:48 pm 
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i agree with alansa and E&C above in that that the basic Codex Astartes Army list should be Combined air/ground list.

and it should be posible to do.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Simple vote - one list or two
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 2:56 pm 
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Those vote choices aren't mutually exclusive.  Tweaking the codex list to improve internal balance doesn't negate the possiblity of later, more specialized lists.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Simple vote - one list or two
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 3:01 pm 
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(nealhunt @ Apr. 25 2007,14:56)
QUOTE
Those vote choices aren't mutually exclusive.  Tweaking the codex list to improve internal balance doesn't negate the possiblity of later, more specialized lists.

Y'ignored choice 2, which would be a more extensive tweak that would invalidate choice 1.


I agree that there should of course be Chapter-specific armylists too (Although I do think that many of the current variant armylists don't represent their chosen chapter particularly well, due to them varying from the 'codex' far more than the chapter at hand tends to do).


My own preference is for an extensive tweak in order to make a combined air/ground list (Which is what the codex list purports itself to be after all!), but I've said that elsewhere a few times. :)




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Warmaster Nice
 Post subject: Simple vote - one list or two
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 3:07 pm 
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I'd go for option 1 to begin with. Like Neal said there's no reason why we can't make Ground or air based lists afterwards, but I'd really prefer that the core rulebook list is changed as little as possible.

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Steve54
 Post subject: Simple vote - one list or two
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 3:25 pm 
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What WMN said.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Simple vote - one list or two
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 3:31 pm 
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(Warmaster Nice @ Apr. 25 2007,15:07)
QUOTE
I'd go for option 1 to begin with. Like Neal said there's no reason why we can't make Ground or air based lists afterwards, but I'd really prefer that the core rulebook list is changed as little as possible.

So you want the 'codex list' to remain an airdrop list with only incidental ground ability?

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alansa
 Post subject: Simple vote - one list or two
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 4:01 pm 
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clearly you have a 'shade of grey' situation when describing a list as drop or not

All lists are drop lists....to a certain degree. There are some lists that are drop lists to a 0 degree (Steel Legions, Siege Masters etc).

sooo. to say a list is a drop list is both true and false... to a certain degree.

And all lists are mud lists... to a certain degree.
You might say that the truth in any situation lies on a scale between truth and falsness (somewhere between 1 and 0)

Obviously you need to use some judgement and common sense.

Orks are not drop because they can't bring in huge amounts of landas.

A partilcular Space Marine army might not be described as drop if it contains only one Thunderawk.

But the list allows lots drop to a 100% degree. Space Marines are more drop than any other army.

That's not a problem - the problem is that people feel that closer you get to the mud option, the less viable space marines are compared to ... say an ork or IG army.

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orangesm
 Post subject: Simple vote - one list or two
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 4:04 pm 
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Shouldnt the core list be able to represent a very combined force - a mix of Mud Marines and Air Assault Marines that is effective?

I am talking about having armies that may have 1-2 (maybe 3) Thunderhawks with a Strike Force in them along with a sizable ground component that is another Strike Force.  At 3000 pts a Marine player fields roughly 1.5 Companies.  At 5000 pts there is more than pts to have a combined force.

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