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Alt. dark angels list
The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Alt. dark angels list
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 7:16 am 
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I really like the dark angel list by BL over on SG. But not entirely and I feel the latest incarnation isn't quite to my taste.

So here is an alternative. What do you think? Comparisons to the current list by BL?

(Yes I have a DA army as well, though it is normally 'green' reinforcements for my salamanders!)

Edit - file now further down page wth some changes.

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Heavens To Betsy
 Post subject: Alt. dark angels list
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 10:46 am 
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Hello,

Initial queries;

Dreadnought spelled incorrectly and missing close combat weapon.

Is the Fast Attack detachment made up of Space Marine Bike and Space Marine Land Speeder units? Does it then have Space Marine Attack Bike, Space Marine Land Speeder Typhoon and Space Marine Land Speeder Tornado upgrades?

What is the Ravenwing detachment made up of? Are you free to choose any mix of five units from the following list; Ravenwing Bike, Ravenwing Attack Bike, Ravenwing Land Speeder?

If the above two are right, why include non-Ravenwing bikes and 'speeders? I was under the impression that the Ravenwing operated the entirety of the chapter's fast attack assets.

The Ravenwing Attack Bike should have Firefight 5+.

Why does the Ravenwing Land Speeder have Walker when the other Ravenwing units don't? As a skimmer, doesn't it ignore terrain that it moves over anyway?

What was the reasoning behind giving them all a 3+ Armour value? It's a big hike from 4+. Is this their jinking ability or something.

Very glad they don't have Fearless.

I think the Master upgrade should be re-named to something like Commander. It smacks of the problems in the Black Legion list where the name of the upgrade and of a couple of individual characters is similar enough to cause confusion.

You'll need to include a new Drop Pod datasheet since Dark Angel Tactical units are not permitted by the one in Armageddon.

Also, shouldn't the Scout detachment be allowed drop pods?

I would modify the drop pod wording to make it a bit more consistent with that in Armageddon, in order to make it clear that the formation receives a Drop Pod unit and actually deploy from that, rather than a spacecraft.
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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Alt. dark angels list
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 11:05 am 
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(Heavens To Betsy @ Apr. 23 2007,15:46)
QUOTE
Dreadnought spelled incorrectly and missing close combat weapon.

All this time I've been spelling it wrong.

Whoops, yes missed the CC weapon. Edit that back in in a mo.

Is the Fast Attack detachment made up of Space Marine Bike and Space Marine Land Speeder units? Does it then have Space Marine Attack Bike, Space Marine Land Speeder Typhoon and Space Marine Land Speeder Tornado upgrades?


Bikes or Speeders as it says, you can then take those upgrades. Though of course as the upgrades state you won't be able to replace bikes with Typhoons and so on as they replace Land Speeders.

What is the Ravenwing detachment made up of? Are you free to choose any mix of five units from the following list; Ravenwing Bike, Ravenwing Attack Bike, Ravenwing Land Speeder?

Yes. Thats me just being lazy I will edit it in.

If the above two are right, why include non-Ravenwing bikes and 'speeders? I was under the impression that the Ravenwing operated the entirety of the chapter's fast attack assets.

Correct. I see no way for the average marine to go from 'guy with a gun' to 'best biker in the galaxy'. Hence I am improving the GW background to allow this intermediate step.

Plus I'm not sure on pointing the varients as raverwing.

The Ravenwing Attack Bike should have Firefight 5+.

No it shouldn't. An attack bike with a multi melta is no match for a speeder - hence the different stats. Check out the datafaxes.

Why does the Ravenwing Land Speeder have Walker when the other Ravenwing units don't? As a skimmer, doesn't it ignore terrain that it moves over anyway?

Because the bikes get scout (whitescar bikes get walker). Walker is a help to skimmers as you still have to test if you want to stop (and therefore hide) in cover.

What was the reasoning behind giving them all a 3+ Armour value? It's a big hike from 4+. Is this their jinking ability or something.

Yes. BL's version gives them an invulnerable save which I don't think they should have. You can't jink defence lasers.

Also, shouldn't the Scout detachment be allowed drop pods?

Hell no. One why are you deploying raw recruits by the somewhat risky drop pod tactic. 2 its very unbalenced. Try a game with a strike cruiser loaded with 5 units of scouts. The drop pod attacks and strike cruiser allow you to cover the entire 6 food deployment zone in a gt game.

Back up with 4 warhound plus stuff and you are laughing.

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thurse
 Post subject: Alt. dark angels list
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 11:52 am 
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Hi!
after playing with a similar DA list, I came to think that the ravenwing is overpowered.
The armor going from 4+ to 3+ is a good boost, and combined with the walker ability to get some cover make the bikes resilient and real assault monsters for their price.

With a 4+MW firefight attack, the assault bikes are even nastier. with this list, I would really field a lot of formations consisting in 5 ravenwing assaults bikes.

Finally, I'm not sure that ravenwing should be so much better than white scar bikes.

Cheers!
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Heavens To Betsy
 Post subject: Alt. dark angels list
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 1:24 pm 
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Originally posted by The_Real_Chris

Is the Fast Attack detachment made up of Space Marine Bike and Space Marine Land Speeder units? Does it then have Space Marine Attack Bike, Space Marine Land Speeder Typhoon and Space Marine Land Speeder Tornado upgrades?

Bikes or Speeders as it says, you can then take those upgrades. Though of course as the upgrades state you won't be able to replace bikes with Typhoons and so on as they replace Land Speeders.
Sorry, I think we're talking at cross-purposes here. I meant are these Space Marine Bikes, Land Speeders, etc.? Because you have both Space Marine and Ravenwing Bikes, Land Speeders and Attack Bikes, you need to be really specific.

Originally posted by The_Real_Chris

The Ravenwing Attack Bike should have Firefight 5+.
No it shouldn't. An attack bike with a multi melta is no match for a speeder - hence the different stats. Check out the datafaxes.
Sorry, mate, confused again. I had read your datasheets. You say the Ravenwing Attack Bke's Firefight shouldn't be 5+, but that it's no match for a Land Speeder. Do you mean you've intentionally kept the Ravenwing Attack Bike's Firefight at 4+ to keep it at a similar power level to the Land Speeder which, while having a Firefight of 5+, compensates by having Skimmer?

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Alt. dark angels list
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 1:52 pm 
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(Heavens To Betsy @ Apr. 23 2007,18:24)
QUOTE
Sorry, I think we're talking at cross-purposes here. I meant are these Space Marine Bikes, Land Speeders, etc.? Because you have both Space Marine and Ravenwing Bikes, Land Speeders and Attack Bikes, you need to be really specific.

Sorry they are indeed 'normal' marine bikes.

Sorry, mate, confused again. I had read your datasheets. You say the Ravenwing Attack Bke's Firefight shouldn't be 5+, but that it's no match for a Land Speeder. Do you mean you've intentionally kept the Ravenwing Attack Bike's Firefight at 4+ to keep it at a similar power level to the Land Speeder which, while having a Firefight of 5+, compensates by having Skimmer?


Yes. Though perhaps this is too much. See below.

Re the ravenwing being better than whitescars - well I don't think so but the concensus is they are.

The save incidentally of 3+ is worse than the other list of 4+ and invulnerable save.

Simply up the formation cost? Currently they are plus 25% for 3+ saves and scout, should that be 300 points to start with? (That much fast scout could be a problem.)

Do you feel (both of you) that essentially swapping skimmer for FF4+ is too much? if they lost walker on the attack bike they would be better?

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Alt. dark angels list
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 3:18 pm 
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If you notice: in my current incarnation of the DarkAngels armylist the RavenWing has lost the InvulnerableSave. Now they have the same stats as in the rulebook but with Scout and Leader. And the Ravenwing LandSpeeder and Ravenwing AttackBike have swapped their weapons.
http://forum.specialist-games.com/topic.a....hpage=4

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Alt. dark angels list
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 3:37 pm 
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Chris:  Don't take this the wrong way, but all your marine lists are looking exactly the same.  You've made the exact same changes regarding armor formations and armor upgrades to all of them.  I understand you think they are effective changes but surely there is some room for some differences in force org.

The save incidentally of 3+ is worse than the other list of 4+ and invulnerable save.


That's not true.  The chances of failing a 4+/6+ combo is 41.67%  Chances of failing a 3+ is only 33%.  That means it takes 25% more firepower to kill the 3+ than the invulnerable combo.  The 4+/6+ requires roughly 20% more firepower than 4+ to inflict the same damage while a 3+ requires 50% more.  That's a big difference in favor of the 3+.

Obviously, the Invulnerable save is better against MW/TK.  However, the large majority of attacks the unit will receive will not be MW/TK.  I don't really see anyone changing their choice of actions based on whether the units have an invulnerable save.

Overall, I think 3+ is just plain better.  For line units which are unlikely to attract a lot of MW/TK fire (like the Ravenwing units) I would choose it over 4+/6+ every time.

I'd say the 3+ is worth about a 20% premium on points while the 4+/6+ is worth about 10%.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Alt. dark angels list
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 3:48 pm 
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Chris:  Don't take this the wrong way, but all your marine lists are looking exactly the same.


Well, he is dealing with Codex chapters... all Codex chapters *should* look roughly the same formation-wise...

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Alt. dark angels list
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 6:35 pm 
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(nealhunt @ Apr. 23 2007,20:37)
QUOTE
Chris:  Don't take this the wrong way, but all your marine lists are looking exactly the same.  You've made the exact same changes regarding armor formations and armor upgrades to all of them.  I understand you think they are effective changes but surely there is some room for some differences in force org.

Well, he is dealing with Codex chapters... all Codex chapters *should* look roughly the same formation-wise...

Yes it is deliberate :) I would like to see the core change to that as well.

Actual there is no change to the armour formations, they are still 4 preds or 4 vindicators. I combine them together to use one less line, same as bikes and speeders. It saves space so I can use a larger font for an A4 list.

The upgrade is different in that it allows preds (that have turned out to be not as good as razorbacks normally) and limits the added AV's to 2. Currently a, say, pred formation could be 4 preds, 2 vindicators and one hunter which can't be carried by a lander. Part of it started out to save space and the rest followed. It could change back to the core system 'cept it takes more space and would need a smaller font :) I personally can't wait to get back and try adding whirlwinds to formations to see the effect. If its no more than other av's it can go in as well.

I also think such an approach gives the armour the status of support more clearly. There are then more infantry formations

Other stuff like the whirlwinds wasn't intentional, originally it was due to using the same list as a base and cut and pasting, but the few times I used it it seemed fine so I don't know why others can't use it. Plus it fits older players (me :) ) stocks of models in multiples of three :)

As to chapter by chapter armour wise they seem pretty similar. Its the infantry that more often than not seems to distinguish stuff.

If people find the upgrade is more complex with no advantages over the current system (2 vindicators and a hunter for everyone) I can change it back with no problems.

Note there are still differences list to list as what constitutes an armour ugrade, but I prefer the style of a generic 'armour' upgrade with differences in what can be taken to 'Vindicators, Hunter, Predator' etc all being listed seperately. Saves space too.

That's not true.  The chances of failing a 4+/6+ combo is 41.67%  Chances of failing a 3+ is only 33%.

This shows how very bad I am at maths.

Oh and personally I'm happy for them to have straight 4+ saves as well, I just thought there would be a barrage of criticism.

Right so after the above changes heres a revised list, including some variation in armour for Neal, more clarity for HtoB and down powering for thurse.

Don't expect to change much until i get to play with my DA again in 3-4 weeks.

Note this isn't to undermine BL, just to show a different take on the Deathwing (fearless back as easier to manage on commanders, 'raiders, Dreds and terminators, plus with the cut in firepower I think easier to balance) and Ravenwing (scouts hunting fallen with the MM bike added as BL says they favour it - personally I suspect he just likes the model), plus a bit of plasma since they seem to historically like it which should also alter the dynamic of playing with them (shorter range, more AT punch).

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Alt. dark angels list
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 6:43 am 
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Oh and heres a thought as there is a model what about a Landspeeder with a plasma cannon instead of a multi melta?

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