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Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 4:45 pm
Posts: 8139
Location: London
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Combining lists - unit stats
I think we have near consensus here
Predator Incinerator - Agree
Prometheus - I think we agree to see what comes out of the separate thread
Helios - Agree
Salamanders Tactical - Agree
Salamanders Terminators - Agree
Salamanders Dreadnought - Agree (the FF4+ version, if anyone objects say its got a powerfist & melta/flamer combo on the other arm  )
AttackBike - If you are happy with an appendix (at FF4+), I am. But it is such a minor thing if you are really keen we can keep it in to start with, I doubt it would be used however (but I am often wrong!).
Crusader - Agree (and do we both agree on CC5+? I'm happy either way)
Supreme Commander - We disagree (it was going so well). I think this depends on the new rules, rules review etc. The advantage of using this version for now is that it makes the list 'immune' to such problems for the purposes of playtesting. If nothing changes rules wise we can keep as is or switch back to the rulebook system. Plus consider though if we have a dedicated pic for each unit he will have his own datafax entry anyway! (A convincing argument I must say.)
Salamanders Devastator - Well we agree at the mo, but what do you think of the Multi melta + heavy flamer idea? It is a powering down, if it proves too much cut the upgrade cost or change back? Plus its generally a good idea to start low in power in playtests! If you don't like it happy to keep with the original and instead add it as a note in the designers section as something to watch for.
Combining lists ? Chapter structure, non codex
I don?t think we disagree here, but worth checking!
1st company ? larger than codex
2nd, 3rd and 4th 3 Battle companies ? larger than codex (7 Tactical, 3 Devastator, 2 Assault squads)
5th Reserve company ? larger than codex (8 Tactical, 4 Devastator squads)
6th Reserve company ? larger than codex (4 Tactical, 8 Devastator squads)
7th Scout company ? smaller than codex
Combining lists ? Design philosophy
Tricky to put into words but I think essentially for any playtester to evaluate against.
Salamanders have a non-codex company structure, a preponderance of flamer and melta weaponry, favour close range fire fights, limited fast attack options (6 assault squads, cross trained on bikes and land speeders), a higher level of technology than most other chapters and finally physically slower reactions and a 'more measured' response than brethren from other legions.
This is represented by
Non-codex company structure ? Salamanders prefer larger formations than their codex brothers regardless of the tactical situation. Represented by allowing the enlargement of tactical and devastator formations, limiting rarer troop types.
Preponderance of flamer and melta weaponry ? Represented by weapons swaps on some units and arming the infantry formation upgrades with alternative weapons.
Close range fire fights ? Availability of heavy armour transports (Land Raiders and variants), short range of Multi melta and heavy flamers, combined with limited ?elite? (3+) close combat troops encourages short range engagement and facilitates closing with enemy.
Limited fast attack options ? Limiting these formations in the army list.
Higher level of technology ? Allowing the use of normally restricted armour by more formations (e.g. Land Raiders as transports for tactical marines).
Slower reactions and a 'more measured' approach. Basically salamanders aren't as snappy as a regular marine. This is reflected by encouraging the use of larger (and therefore less) formations, limiting fast attack options and altering points costs to change the value of different strategies.
Add to designers notes
This army list represents a typical Salamanders task force. The chapter however can adapt as the situation requires and so you may use any other ?codex? marine list to represent a Salamander army. For instance during the Amerits crusade the requirements for rapid strike forces could only be meet by cross training tactical marines to use Land Speeder Typhoons and Tornados and massing the chapters available assault troops. This would be represented by using the Codex marine list found in the main Epic rulebook.
Do you have any worries?
Mine are
?Salamander? upgrades.
Epic being what it is these essentially boost a formation for assault duties, which in marine language means air drops. As a result the Thunderhawk should cost more, to try and balance the ground/air effectiveness problem. This does make assault troops more marginal.
The dev upgrade ? potentially a nasty package in a Lander. 1125 points for either (16 AP5+/AT6+, 8 MW5+, 2 AT4+, 3 AP4+) or (12 FF3+, 6 FF5+, 4 FFMW4+, 18 units and 4DC) depending on shooting or assaulting.
Also considering the added FF power should the Land Raider and variants cost more in light of potential use with a Lander? The consequence of this is to make the terminator formation only viable if mechanized with a crusader. Then again Troops with Heavy Flamers are generally unsuited to use as mechanized infantry in a non-assault role.
Finally the amount of MW in the list- should this be cut back and the amount of flamers increase? The ideal way being to have the devastators armed with one of each weapon.
Worth including
Experimental rules
At the time of writing there are various experimental rules suggestions for space marines. When reporting on playtests please state whether any of the following suggestions were used and if any other alterations common to your games were used.
Current relevant suggested experimental rules
Predator Destructor ? Changed to FF4+
Land Raider - Changed to FF4+
Vindicator ? Speed changed to 25cm, given small arms, ignore cover to weapon profile, add Walker, Thick Rear Armour to notes.
ATSKNF ? Space Marine formations halve their number of Blast Markers (rounding up) when calculating Assault Modifiers AND A space marine formation that includes any units with the leader ability may remove two (not one) extra Blast Markers for each Leader whenever it regroups or successfully rallies.
_________________ If using E-Bay use this link to support Tac Com!'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' – Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913 "Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography." General Plumer, 191x
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But hey i like pictures