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Something to consider for the future.
Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Something to consider for the future.
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 12:22 pm 
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Okay, so in the new Dark Angels Codex, a unit of 5 Terminators can only take one Assault Cannon.


In the next mini-codex (Blood Angels), Terminators will only be able to take one Assault Cannon in each squad.


Jervis is on record as saying that in all future Codices from now on, 'Codex' Chapters will only be able to take one Assault Cannon in each squad.



So, when the rules review comes around... our Terminator bases need to go from 2x Assault Cannons per base down to 1 Assault Cannon per base.



Ithankyou.

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Something to consider for the future.
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 12:25 pm 
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Not true.

We already have twice the number of heavy weapons in tactical squads, so why not terminators?

Our driving point should be balance, not 40k. It is a skirmish in epic and inspires our stats, not dictates them. The relevant fluff from each army does that.

Incidentally for 40k is it one assault cannon or one heavy weapon?

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Markconz
 Post subject: Something to consider for the future.
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 12:33 pm 
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But can't each combat squad of 5 men take a heavy weapon Chris? Or is it down to one per 10 men now - E&C probably knows? The local 40k Dark Angel players have been whinging about what's happened to their army, but I've been increasingly disinterested in 40k happenings for a while now... :D

More to the point I'm inclined to agree that the latest fads in the 40k rules can take second place to a more stable position based on background fluff and what is balanced and works well in epic.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Something to consider for the future.
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 1:01 pm 
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Incidentally for 40k is it one assault cannon or one heavy weapon?


One heavy weapon.

It's a new change to bring the 'codex' armies into line, and it's going to be applied to every Codex Marine army Dark Angels onwards.

We already have twice the number of heavy weapons in tactical squads, so why not terminators?

We don't, because those are 6x 5-man Tactical Marine combat squads, each with a missile launcher.




I'm certain I've seen a quote from Jervis somewhere that basically says 'Terminators got 2x Assault cannons per base because that's what they have 90% of the time in 40k'.

That's quite untrue now...




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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Something to consider for the future.
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 1:03 pm 
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(Markconz @ Apr. 17 2007,12:33)
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But can't each combat squad of 5 men take a heavy weapon Chris? Or is it down to one per 10 men now - E&C probably knows?

Depends how you build your army I think. Both are possible, depending on your army list, IIRC.


Noteworthy: The second Heavy Weapon in each ten man squad in Epic could be assumed to be the Special weapon, since they aren't represented.

Thus you get 2 'noteworthy' weapons* for every ten tactical marines.

And 1 'noteworthy' weapon*** for every five Terminators.





* 1 Heavy, 1 Special. One in each 5-man combat squad.

*** 1 Heavy.




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Pulsar
 Post subject: Something to consider for the future.
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 1:25 pm 
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(Markconz @ Apr. 17 2007,12:33)
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But can't each combat squad of 5 men take a heavy weapon Chris? Or is it down to one per 10 men now

with combat squad rule you can break down one ten man Squad into two 5 man squads, and you can put the one Heavy and one special weapons in either squad.

also the units that can be split are:
-Company Veterans
-Scout
-Tactical
-Assault
-Ravenwing Attack Squadrons
-Devastator

so take from that what you will.

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Something to consider for the future.
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 1:43 pm 
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Special weapons aren't worthy of a 45cm shot - we all know that is from the efficiency of marines, the new system I gather in 40k is 10 man squad halved, the old system 5 man squad increased.

Special weapons in Epic
Plasma gun - 15cm AP5+/AT5+
Flamer - small arms, maybe Ignore cover
Melta - small arms, maybe MW

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Bombot
 Post subject: Something to consider for the future.
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 4:34 pm 
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I thought the same as E&C when I heard about the one assault cannon thing.  Personally, I'd just leave it as a discrepancy between the systems.

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Dwarf Supreme
 Post subject: Something to consider for the future.
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 4:37 pm 
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(The_Real_Chris @ Apr. 17 2007,07:25)
QUOTE
Our driving point should be balance, not 40k. It is a skirmish in epic and inspires our stats, not dictates them. The relevant fluff from each army does that.

I agree. 40K shouldn't be the the tail wagging the Epic dog.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Something to consider for the future.
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 4:59 pm 
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(Dwarf Supreme @ Apr. 17 2007,16:37)
QUOTE

(The_Real_Chris @ Apr. 17 2007,07:25)
QUOTE
Our driving point should be balance, not 40k. It is a skirmish in epic and inspires our stats, not dictates them. The relevant fluff from each army does that.

I agree. 40K shouldn't be the the tail wagging the Epic dog.

I agree, but would point out that Jervis' justification for this change in 40k was basically: "Well, in the background, Codex Chapters only get one Heavy Weapon per squad...".


So in this case, the background is wagging 40k...

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Something to consider for the future.
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 7:57 pm 
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I see it so personally: There is only 1 Heavy Weapon per 10 men squad. In Epic this is represented by 2 units, each a 5 man combat squad. But their fire-discipline is so formidable (they are SpaceMarines!) that on an Epic level it has the effect as if they would have two MissileLaunchers.

Same for Terminators. Very good firediscipline = twice as effective in shooting on an Epic level :)

If not we should really alter the equipmend of the affected units.

Light Tactical Unit:
Flamer = FF becomes IgnoreCover
Meltagun = FF becomes MW
Plasmagun = 15cm AP5+/AT5+
OR simply FF 5+ CC4+
SpecialWeapon (15cm) SmallArms

Heavy Tactical Unit:
FF4+ CC5+
MissileLauncher 45cm AP5+/AT6+

Terminators with only one AssaultCannon. And perhabs the introducion of Assault Terminators with a 2nd MW ExtraAttack and no ranged weapon?




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orangesm
 Post subject: Something to consider for the future.
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 11:29 pm 
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BlackLegion makes an excellent point.  A Space Marine unit in 40k can fire the heavy weapon roughly 3 times a game - which is roughly 30 minutes or less of combat.  An Epic turn is half this so getting 2 shots makes sense.

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Something to consider for the future.
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 11:42 pm 
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Not exactly.
A Epic turn is 15minutes.
An Epic Assault is a whole game of WH40k.
WH40k has 6 turns (somtimes more but this is rare).
A squad with a HeavyWeapon can fire it each turn of WH40k provided it doesn't move (HeavyWeapons have a move-or-shoot rule).

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Lord Inquisitor
 Post subject: Something to consider for the future.
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 12:08 am 
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A fine argument... doesn't really stand up to scrutiny when you compare it to the Imperial Guard who only get one heavy weapon per 10 men. :p

Personally I'm not too sure we need to rework Epic just to conform to 40k, and leaving things are is certainly the way of least effort!

On the other hand, it seems like the 40K Marines are going back to the old ways which conform to the proper Marine codex organisation. While basing Epic on 40K might not always be best, when 40K and the background conform and Epic doesn't - then it might be worth having a stern look at the Epic organisation. If you wanted to be a purist you could give every other Space Marine unit an AP5+/AT5+ plasma gun.
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