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Iron Hands

 Post subject: Iron Hands
PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 4:13 am 
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Edit now with word file.

I do like potentially the look of the army in Epic, but I have to admit some of the fluff is pants.

The good bits
Bionic enhancement - a loathing of the flesh
Dreadnaught highest you can go and everyone finds you inspiring.
Iron Father - a chaplain techmarine
Ten independent companies - all unit types included in each one
Strong links to AdMech - see below
Lack of support equipment - see below

The bad bit
So they lost their gear 10,000 years ago and despite all the new founding?s and them being the best pals of the adeptus - they have never resupplied!? Oh come on.

Clearly new fluff is required. A better explanation?

Yes all the gear was lost with the Primarch.
As a result the legion focused inwards. Vehicles were maintained but out of respect to the lost machine spirits never replaced. Dogmatic adherence to a moment 10,000 years ago at the time of their greatest defeat has frozen their world view and this is instilled in new recruits.

Nothing new is accepted, they are determined to fight this lost battle again and again, showing that it could be won and vindicate the memory of their Primarch, a man seen as second in strength and perfection only to the Emperor himself.

As their faith was proven weak intolerance for weakness has become loathing of their own altered humanity with flagellation, scarring, disfigurement and ultimately bionic replacement. Mutations are abhorred, a recruit implanted with zygotes that prove flawed is ritually put to death by his fellows, who tear his flesh to pieces with metal claws and fingers. Physic powers are an unknown force to their logic engines and doctrine. Sometimes recruits prove to have these abilities and can either be trained as Librarians or destroyed as aberrations. As a result it is unlikely there is more than 2 or 3 in the whole legion.

As a result of using declining stocks of legion equipment many vehicles await repairs, or have become too old to reliably operate and serve as spare parts for others. Innovations such as the Annihilator, or even the Razorback, accepted by the AdMech, are Heresy in the Iron Hands eyes.

They have become a mix of ancient vehicles and self loathing battle brothers fixated on surpassing the weaknesses of the flesh and redeeming the mistake and terrible loss of their Primarch.

Organization
The Iron Hands are only nominally a codex chapter. Indeed they still refer to themselves as a legion.

Each company is self contained and rarely meets its fellows, possessing its own mobile keep, armory, apothecary, fleet, scout and veteran force, with each company varying in size. Jump packs were never that common during the Heresy, but easy to maintain so dedicated formations are still fielded. Worse off are supplies of Terminator suits, now to rare to field as dedicated formations. Instead they are scattered amongst the squads, inspiring battle brothers with their mechanical magnificence and acting as a reminder of the rewards of loyal service. There is no Chapter master, instead when combined action is called for company heads meet in council to plan strategy.

There have even been instances or warfare between companies. Loathing of their own bodies extends to either admiration and awe at those more augmented than themselves, or disgust for those with less. A result of this is less co-ordination than other chapters and the recent heroes of the chapter are those with augmented skills, not innate greatness or leadership abilities.

Effects on list

No terminator or armour formations. Zip. Zero.
No new equipment (razorbacks, hunters etc).
Armour can be added to infantry formations.
Whirlwind AA system.
Only company commanders and iron father characters.
Limit captains to 0-2 (in essence unless you play over 5000 points it is unlikely to have more than 2 companies co-orperating!).
Possibly add a Praetorian like the Cap Imperialis if they are using ancient gear.
Dreadnaughts have Inspiring.
Assault, Devastator and Tactical marines have Invulnerable save.
Should Land Speeders and Bikes get an invulnerable save? Not sure.
Use 1st ed Land Raiders, predators and vindicators (weapon fits from those models).
Suggest use rapiers, tarantulas, mole mortars and thud guns from 1st ed if you have them as devastator squads.
Special rule ? multiple instances of invulnerable save in a unit stack, so two saves on a unit would give an invulnerable save of 5+.

New/Altered units

Iron Father ? I?m thinking perhaps the following?
Version 1
75 points
Character
Power weapon, +1MW CC
Gun servitors, +1 FF
Inspiring, Invulnerable save, Leader

Version 2
50 points
Character
Power weapon, +1MW CC
Gun servitors, +1 FF
Invulnerable save, Leader

Mk1 Land Raider (the metal one)
Speed 25cm, Save 4+, CC6+, FF5+
2 Twin Lascannon, 45cm, AT4+
RA, Transport 2 scouts, tacticals or devastators.

Mk1 Predator
Speed 30cm, Save 4+, CC6+, FF4+
2 Lascannon, 45cm, AT5+
Autocannon, 45cm, AP5+/AT6+

Dreadnaught
Gains Inspiring

Whirlwind
Gains AND 45cm, AA6+

Assault, Tactical and Devastator marines gain Invulnerable Save

Note I am aware of the whirlwind balance and are trying to think of ways round it, perhaps go back to aversion similar to 1st ed.

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 Post subject: Iron Hands
PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 5:12 am 
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Why should the IronHands be against technical improvement? The improve their own bodies through bionics so they would do the same to their technical equipment too!

According tothe new Codex Space Marines the IronHands have the same flaw as the Salamanders: 0-1 in total for LandSpeeder, Bike and AttackBike Squadrons.
But no explanation is given.

As merits they have:
- Techmarines with +1 Wounds which replace the Commander
- Terminator armour for VeteranSergeants
- Dreadnoughts as Elite or HeavySupport choices whom the Elite choices must be Venerable. The 0-1 restriction for Venerable Dreadnoughts doesn't count for IronHands.

In the IndexAstartes articles the IronHands gain
- the IronFather as Techmarine with a 4+ invulnerable save which replaces the Chaplai.
- The Venerable Dreadnouhgt  
- VeteranSergeants are able to have Terminator armor. But no Terminator Squads are allowed.

I would suggest the following:

- Replace Chaplain with IronFather (only name change and +1 MissileLauncher to represent the Servitor retinue).
- Dreadnoughts gain Inspiring and InvulnerableSave.
- One unit per Assault/Tactical and Devastator detachmend gains InvulnerableSave because one of their Sergeants wears Terminator armour.
- Bike and LandSpeeder Detatchmends are 0-1 choice in total.





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 Post subject: Iron Hands
PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 5:35 am 
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Nah :)

They have next to no equipment according to there fluff - hence the land speeder and that restriction. As you say it makes no sense, if they are constantly mechanising themselves why are they not the most mechanised chapter? erminators, speeders, land raiders galour. But to the contary they are one of the most ill equipped (not enough terminators for detachments or even squads for instance). Hence the fluff above trying to explain this. As to what the 40k army list says really I don't much care as it represents an assault in epic.

The chapter according to all the fluff I've seen is characterised by bionics, lack of specialist equipment and a different command structure.

The above tries to a) rationalise this and b) represent this in a balanced way.

The Invulnerable save represents veterins in terminator armour, bionic enhancements etc. In essence a whole host of 6 million dollar man stuff.

I see no reason to give a dreadnaught an invulnerable save unless it also wants to be a leader upgrade. They are venerated and held up as the peak of Iron hand aspirations (when i grow up brother marine I want to be entombed in a Dreadnaught), not given power fields.

A lot of flavour in 40k comes from (according to memory) how you paint and convert a force and its characters abilities, then your average troops type (in some lists).

In epic I feel the flavour comes from army organisation and the survivability, synergy and overall weapons bias from the units within each formation. Two identical sets of units behave very differently depending on how they are organised.

I see why you suggest the above - it is a direct modification of 40k pasted over the codex (air drop) army list. I personally though think that doesn't work and indeed your ideas you could write a theming article for, you wouldn't need a list.

Oh in the rough army list restricted formations are 50%. All that AdMech support after all.

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 Post subject: Iron Hands
PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 5:43 am 
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I have edited my posting.
And hey here it is 7am and i'm coming straight back from a party :D
Now i will sleep over your reply and post something new later. ;)

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 Post subject: Iron Hands
PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 9:38 am 
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I must say i quite like the look of it, whether people think its iron hands or not I would want to keep it as a list for someone :)

Insular, obsessed with exercising weakness, dogmatic views (an element of self obsession perhaps?), poor company, stuck in the past. heading for a fall maybe?

List wise would love to hear some opinions on the iron father and points value. How would you do it?

Also balance wise on the MK1 pred, 'raider and whirlwind, or rather how to get it to balance with the whirlwind?

Make the launcher 2bp one shot? Give it the 1st ed 5 man troop carrying ability as well?

I could simply drop it for AA and think of something else. The thawk interceptor maybe (it goes almost as fast as a barracuda don't you know).

Could possibly add the thawk bomber but to be frank I think thats a little too modern? Or were they around during the heresy?

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 Post subject: Iron Hands
PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 11:56 am 
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The heresy would have seen a chapter like the Iron Hands using Stormbirds possibly, rather than the newer Thunderhawks.

Stormbirds were sort of like a larger Landing Craft.

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 Post subject: Iron Hands
PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 12:03 pm 
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Unfortuently no model is even remotely availible (if the archives were open I could use the old big marine dropship).

Maybe restrict them to the landing craft and call it a stormbird? Changes the list somewhat if I did that. Suggestions?

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 Post subject: Iron Hands
PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 3:22 pm 
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I pretty much see the Landing Craft as the 'newer model' of Stormbird.

It has a pretty similar set of abilities (Carries many men plus some vehicles, with a weapons payload of its own).

The only real difference is the model, the Stormbird is meant to be sleek, while the Landing Craft is anything but.


Overall I like the idea of doing an Iron Hands list.

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 Post subject: Iron Hands
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 11:06 am 
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MK1 whirlwind.
Ideas? Things to change could be speed, firepower, transport value.

The 1st ed whirlwind was an 8 tubed multiple tube missile launcher. An easy 40k conversion using a large monster base in fact for 40k (in the days when white dwarf was a useful resource) too.

It clamped to the top of a rhino but still allowed a full squad to be carried inside. I forget the stats in 1st ed but they were respectable and a half dozen could easy bring a tower block down.

How then to balance it with the (rather nifty I must say) 1st ed Pred and 'Raider? Make it a one shot razorback like thing? Or do something entirely different?

I must say again i quite like the background and a fair few number of ideas to expand it.

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 Post subject: Iron Hands
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 12:46 pm 
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The Mk1 LandRaider had a pintle-mounted Heavy Bolter.

The Razorback was firstly instrudced with a single Lascannon and twin linked Plasmarifles in its turret.

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 Post subject: Iron Hands
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 1:00 pm 
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I don't think the Iron Hands have a lack of modern equipment from the books I've read. Iron Hands for example.

The real differences is that most of their commander are members of the marsian cult. As such they would definitely have access to all the modern STC constructs and modern technology.

They all have 1 bionic Arm/Hand and they use a lot of bionics to replace the flesh. They also have no dedicated terminator squads but spread there terminators through the basic squads, possibly give them a invulnerable save to represent both of these combined.

They form into Clans which are all based around one of the HUGE mobile land forges on Medusa. These are a bit like Space Wolf great companies

The are all about heavy armour and firepower, not fast strikes so they would lose speeders and bikes in favour of dedicated tank / mechanised companies. They would also have a larger proportion of devastators, (possible allow them to attach devastator units to basic tactical formations / give them large tank formations.)





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 Post subject: Iron Hands
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 1:03 pm 
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Nope thats the Mk1.1 :) The original model had just the lascannon. The plastic raider that followed had the (heavy?) bolter and the 40k plastic version 2 heavy bolters.

Razorbacks date to mid 30th millenium, making them too new.

Oh course this only if you buy into my explanation for them having sod all gear. After browsing a bit on the net apparently they only have 8 dreads as well.

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 Post subject: Iron Hands
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 1:19 pm 
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Yeah in the book 'Iron Hands' they only have 8 dreads.. however I don't really like this. The way Iron Hands are played in 40K you quite often see them fielding 6 in a 2000pt army and the traits allow you to take more than most other marine army. Occasionally authors make mistakes. Like the galaxy spanning war 30 thousand years ago in a certain novel I will not name, or a certain book that has blood angels dying in their 100s at the drop of a hat, seeing that theew are only 1000 the chapter gets wiped out a few times in the course of the series.




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 Post subject: Iron Hands
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 1:24 pm 
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(mageboltrat @ Apr. 16 2007,18:00)
QUOTE
I don't think the Iron Hands have a lack of modern equipment from the books I've read. Iron Hands for example.

The real differences is that most of their commander are members of the marsian cult. As such they would definitely have access to all the modern STC constructs and modern technology.

So why, as all the fluff I've found indicates they are short on gear, have they not resupplied since they are chums with the adepts?

Modern gear wise - well of course they have, otherwise GW would have nothing to sell!

Easily explained with something like reverance for fallen machines salvaging other chapters abondoned gear after they fdlee the field and the iron hands hang on. Enough for 40k but inconsequentual for epic.

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 Post subject: Iron Hands
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 1:26 pm 
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(The_Real_Chris @ Apr. 16 2007,13:03)
QUOTE
Oh course this only if you buy into my explanation for them having sod all gear.

I don't think it is a correct assumption. seeing that their base of operations are 10 Huge land forges that constantly trawl Medusa mining and forging new equipment.





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