Tactical Command :: View topic - IF/planetside armylist

(Evil and Chaos @ Apr. 09 2007,20:23)

Nope, I've been trying them as ground-pounding / garrison formations.

And a formation of four 4+ save AV's is just not worth 200 points. More like 175 (Similar debate to Assault Marines I guess).

(Hena @ Apr. 09 2007,20:28)

Few quick comments

1. I think that 75 points for LR is too cheap. There is no point in taking Preds when you can get LRs at same price. And I think that Crusader is not much better than regular LR. Note that the Chaos LRs cost that 75 points and they lack ATSKNF.

2. Also that allows 10 strong tank units (LR+Tank and Heavy support). I'd take Tank Support from LRs away (and perhaps allow Prometheus).

3. Terminators. Why Tank Support?

4. 55 points per assault? And why that upgrade anyway?

5. I'd possibly remove Tank Support from Tacticals or Devastators, just to cut down on their numbers. This list seems to make Blood Angels obsolete (unless one wants drop pods).

(nealhunt @ Apr. 09 2007,21:18)

1 - Put all the Leader options in one Upgrade. As it is, you have a separate Note for Prometheus/SC issue, and two if/then requirements in separate upgrades. No end of potential confusion there.

2 - Just make the Assault Marines 50 points each to test it.

3 - Take out the reference to Razorbacks in the LR Crusader entry. Razorbacks already state "after... transport units...". Most likely, 1-2 LRC/100 points each would cover all the possible permutations without allowing abuse.

4 - Any reason not to allow Devs in LRs?

5 - Is there a reason not to just put Whirlwinds in "Tank Support" and replace the WW "Support" with Tank Support? As a practical matter, I don't think anyone would buy Wirlwinds to go with the other tanks or vice versa. Even if they did, is there some sort of exploit?

6 - (And just to be nit-picky, it should probably be called "Armor Support.")

7 - I'm hesitant about 4 Tbolts in a formation for 300. Durability increases substantially with formation size, so the points/unit should probably go up as well.

Author:	The_Real_Chris [ Mon Apr 09, 2007 7:26 am ]
Post subject:	IF/planetside armylist
Well as the description says thoughts on it and the formatting? Oh and does anyone have an image to fill the space on the reference sheet? Edit, lets see if this works! http://www.box.net/shared/4pp4g3jivo

Author:	The_Real_Chris [ Mon Apr 09, 2007 7:30 am ]
Post subject:	IF/planetside armylist
And the reference sheet.

Author:	Evil and Chaos [ Mon Apr 09, 2007 10:45 am ]
Post subject:	IF/planetside armylist
Ok here goes: - Dreadnoughts are overpriced at 225. Heck I've playtested them extensively at 200pts and they're overpriced at that cost too. - Damocles Command Rhino. Fluff would indicate there are only 1-2 of these per Chapter.. perhaps place a limit on them? - I like the Sniper upgrade mod. More to come.

Author:	The_Real_Chris [ Mon Apr 09, 2007 1:05 pm ]
Post subject:	IF/planetside armylist
Its because I simply couldn't get the dred formation at 8 strong to work (allowing the dred upgrade) at 400 points. It was a rather good garrisson to say the least. The points tries to reflect that. Plus have you used them as a formation of 4 in a thunderhawk? A very cheap quite good loadout. A thunderhawk at 225 and them at 225 essentially means you are paying 250 points (over the odd of a normal thunderhawk) for 8 4+ attacks, half of them MW. Droping a load of assault av's into the midst of some armies can often be hard for them to cope with.

Author:	BlackLegion [ Mon Apr 09, 2007 2:26 pm ]
Post subject:	IF/planetside armylist
Try out http://s10.quicksharing.com/ Not a big fan of ImperialFists but i must say that i like the list. But why Damcoles and Promtheus only if there is no Leader (=Character)in the Detachmend? Would it be to much over the top?

Tactical Command http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/

IF/planetside armylist http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=73&t=9124	Page 1 of 2

Author:	Evil and Chaos [ Mon Apr 09, 2007 3:23 pm ]
Post subject:	IF/planetside armylist
Plus have you used them as a formation of 4 in a thunderhawk? A very cheap quite good loadout. A thunderhawk at 225 and them at 225 essentially means you are paying 250 points (over the odd of a normal thunderhawk) for 8 4+ attacks, half of them MW. Droping a load of assault av's into the midst of some armies can often be hard for them to cope with. Nope, I've been trying them as ground-pounding / garrison formations. And a formation of four 4+ save AV's is just not worth 200 points. More like 175 (Similar debate to Assault Marines I guess).

Author:	nealhunt [ Mon Apr 09, 2007 4:18 pm ]
Post subject:	IF/planetside armylist
In no particular order... Put all the Leader options in one Upgrade. As it is, you have a separate Note for Prometheus/SC issue, and two if/then requirements in separate upgrades. No end of potential confusion there. I think it would be cleaner if you put them in one list and itemized it. something like: Commander (one of the following) 0-1 Supreme commander per army - SM SC or Prometheus - 75/125 Chaplain/Librarian/Commander - 50 Damocles - 25 Just make the Assault Marines 50 points each to test it. Take out the reference to Razorbacks in the LR Crusader entry. Razorbacks already state "after... transport units...". Most likely, 1-2 LRC/100 points each would cover all the possible permutations without allowing abuse. Any reason not to allow Devs in LRs? Is there a reason not to just put Whirlwinds in "Tank Support" and replace the WW "Support" with Tank Support? As a practical matter, I don't think anyone would buy Wirlwinds to go with the other tanks or vice versa. Even if they did, is there some sort of exploit? (And just to be nit-picky, it should probably be called "Armor Support.") I'm hesitant about 4 Tbolts in a formation for 300. Durability increases substantially with formation size, so the points/unit should probably go up as well.

Author:	The_Real_Chris [ Mon Apr 09, 2007 4:53 pm ]
Post subject:	IF/planetside armylist
In essence the listis niether here nor there, I am more interested in opinions on the style as a template for marine varient lists. So one page fluff, one page how to use, one page list and so on, also including all the special rules needed to play. But why Damcoles and Promtheus only if there is no Leader (=Character)in the Detachmend? Would it be to much over the top? In a word - Yes Using the suggested ATSKNF rule of leader subtracting 2 BM its too much to have two leaders in a formation. (Evil and Chaos @ Apr. 09 2007,20:23) QUOTE Nope, I've been trying them as ground-pounding / garrison formations. And a formation of four 4+ save AV's is just not worth 200 points. More like 175 (Similar debate to Assault Marines I guess). Like assault marines they work better air attacking. I guess I could drop it to 200 but only if I removed the option to take 4 more. Thats there based on fluff about big dreadnaught battles on armeggedon. Try loading 1-2 formations on 1-2 thunderhawks. Its a very cheap effect assault formation if you first get something in for supporting fire. Also try them 8 strong garrissoned maybe in cover, they are a bugger to remove. Also they make excellent assault troops for going in hard to a formation sheltering in cover, that walker ability coming into play. (Hena @ Apr. 09 2007,20:28) QUOTE Few quick comments 1. I think that 75 points for LR is too cheap. There is no point in taking Preds when you can get LRs at same price. And I think that Crusader is not much better than regular LR. Note that the Chaos LRs cost that 75 points and they lack ATSKNF. 2. Also that allows 10 strong tank units (LR+Tank and Heavy support). I'd take Tank Support from LRs away (and perhaps allow Prometheus). 3. Terminators. Why Tank Support? 4. 55 points per assault? And why that upgrade anyway? 5. I'd possibly remove Tank Support from Tacticals or Devastators, just to cut down on their numbers. This list seems to make Blood Angels obsolete (unless one wants drop pods). 1 - I don't There is a point to taking preds - the base formation cost is 275, not 375. That 100 point difference matters less as the formations get bigger, but marines cannot afford more than 1 or 2 really big formations. Certainly for Land Raider and terminator formations it makes sense to get LR, but no one else can, making the choice actually 3 razorbacks or a predator typically (I personally go for the razorbacks). The effect of the 75 point upgrade is that a mechanised terminator formation costs a base of 650 points (which I have tried nearly evry chance I've got and is similar to the whitescars costing) and you can have 8 land raider strong company for 675 which managed to grind down a leman russ company, with the last couple of 'raiders finishing it off in an assault with some support. 1.2 - Crusaders the (2) times I've used them have been excellent. Adding MW attacks and good FF support to tactical and dev formations. Perhaps 100 points each is to much - but that is what you reckomend for the regular land raider surely? Are you saying they should be less? Edit - or do you refer to them as a lr formation upgrade? They are 125 as I admit I haven't tested them in the formation and always start high if unsure. Here I worry about turning the fomration into a dual shooting/assault beast as each has the FF of slightly more than 2 regular LR. 2 - It includes the hunter ugrade which is why they can get it. Also the base cost would be 825 - a third of your army in most gt games. Something like a shadowsword comany would eat up your points there (hell I reckon one on one with a warlord and you would lose)! Viable in a 5000 point game as the centre piece perhaps, otherwise you would have next to no activations. 3 - Terminators currently can have vindicators. In essence anything in the regular list with access to AV's gets the new tank option. 4 - Its all to do with air assaults. Here the cost of air assaults has gone up (and maybe by more, not sure will have to get back to the uk to test some more). Assault formations were marginal in many ways and not viable if they weren't air dropped. So to make them worthwhile you can field them eight strong for 395 (400) points on the ground. Post air assault they are better too, but here the cost of the increase effectiveness is in the thunderhawk. I guess its a bit fiddly for them and the dreds so both costs can come down and teh thunderhawk go up. Downside is the base assault fromation is essentially completly useless and any other load out also pretty bad. Then again it is a planetside list... 5 - Tank support already cuts down their numbers. Instead of 2 vindicators and a hunter its now a max of 2 av's or a prometheus. Re blood angles - you have hit nail on head. This is really a 'firepower' list. Salamanders get to be a firefight list. BTs a close combat list. Blood Angles get to be an assault list. All three have larger formations but all three should try and achieve different things. Blood angels are perhaps the trickist, how to retain good assault potential and not be an air assault beast? Incidentally I reckon Ultramarines should be the current 'air assault' list

Author:	The_Real_Chris [ Mon Apr 09, 2007 6:56 pm ]
Post subject:	IF/planetside armylist
(nealhunt @ Apr. 09 2007,21:18) QUOTE 1 - Put all the Leader options in one Upgrade. As it is, you have a separate Note for Prometheus/SC issue, and two if/then requirements in separate upgrades. No end of potential confusion there. 2 - Just make the Assault Marines 50 points each to test it. 3 - Take out the reference to Razorbacks in the LR Crusader entry. Razorbacks already state "after... transport units...". Most likely, 1-2 LRC/100 points each would cover all the possible permutations without allowing abuse. 4 - Any reason not to allow Devs in LRs? 5 - Is there a reason not to just put Whirlwinds in "Tank Support" and replace the WW "Support" with Tank Support? As a practical matter, I don't think anyone would buy Wirlwinds to go with the other tanks or vice versa. Even if they did, is there some sort of exploit? 6 - (And just to be nit-picky, it should probably be called "Armor Support.") 7 - I'm hesitant about 4 Tbolts in a formation for 300. Durability increases substantially with formation size, so the points/unit should probably go up as well. 1 - I would love to but..... I don't want several things to happen. 1.1 - is the additon of prometheus/damocles to certain formations such as whirlwinds, assault marines and dreadnaughts. 1.2 - Damocles command wise it is something I haven't tested, instead its based on E&C's idea. I have no idea how it will work, I think for 25 points leader and an extra AV to a tank formation is too cheap. I could be wrong, however I am suspicious. 1.3 - I don't want formations all the getting the chance to be quite large. There is a cap in the AV's bar the 'raiders of 6 rhino hulls or 4 and a Land Raider Prometheus. In truth I would expect the prometheus to given an infantry or destructor formation If you can think of a way round this i am all ears. Note there is more explanation in the using the army list bit. 2 - see above in the reply to hena. They have been tried way back as 375 for 8 however were loaded in a thunderhawk so I'm not sure how much that affects them. 3 - Yes I was getting carried away with ornate restrictions! Like to limit it to one per formation though as it isn't a black templar list. 4 - Yes, Land Raiders and terminators. I am a big fan of LR and LR companies. I've tried out lots the optuions of adding more LR to a LR formation and also occasionally mechanising terminators. In both case the 75 point upgrade seems to do it, with the 100 point one being a waste of time. The only problem is devestators. At 75 points 1-4 lr upgrades is very attracive, indeed I would go for them as an alternative to the lr formation. I don't know how to resolve this so have dropped it entirely. Suggestions anyone? They can still get a crusader and this makes for a nifty FF formation. 5 - Abuse? Every formation adds a whirlwind. A single template catches 3-4 units and discourages bunching up with the direct range matching the general marine 45cm guns. Though weaker than a motre dedicated AP or AT tank it hits either on a six. Trying wide access didn't seem to work. Perhaps this was due to enemy army types? With the exception of the hunter all the armour options are questionable compared to razorbacks (the greatest av's in list) in the opinion of some. If people could try it out I would be greatful. I am on something of a hiatus for another 1-2 months at least and working on pre current country experience. 6 - Yeah yeah yeah 7 - I should say I have no experience with this under the revised +1 to hit rules (which I don't like and would prfer to see a proper fix worked out or maybe even the alternate system I played with a lot a while back ) but when we tried it lots (mostly with AMTL) it seemed fine. To tell the truth I would prefer the 2 strong formation I know and love, but I know a lot of people who would prefer to have the option of this. Intercept wise its okay and ground attack can chew up mech formations but doesn't have the at punch of 300 points of fighter bombas (how my artillary hates those things). Finally I should say like everything I have been 'inspired' by blacklegions style, though I hope the tables and reference sheet in particular will speed people formating their own ideas.

Author:	Evil and Chaos [ Tue Apr 10, 2007 11:04 am ]
Post subject:	IF/planetside armylist
I don't see why Land Raider Crusaders should be limited to 0-1 per formation... fluffwise there's no reason they should be any rarer than the normal Land Raider, it's down to the Chapter's personal preference as to what weapons they fit to their Land Raider hulls.

Author:	The_Real_Chris [ Tue Apr 10, 2007 1:04 pm ]
Post subject:	IF/planetside armylist
Really? I thought it was all down to the BT's having loads and other chapters having less. Plus balance wise if devs took 2 it would be 450 points for a formation that throws out 4x FF3+, 2x FF5+MW and 4x FF5+ attacks. Too good?

Author:	Evil and Chaos [ Tue Apr 10, 2007 2:21 pm ]
Post subject:	IF/planetside armylist
Too good? Then the Crusader's stats would seem to be too good for their cost?

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