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CAL001
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Post subject: Space Marines.  Posted: Fri Oct 20, 2006 1:39 am |
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Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2005 12:54 am
Posts: 1927
Location: Australia
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Any review of the marine list should be based oin the suggestions already in place and a series of reviews of current unit sizes and new additions based on model availability with a large playtest group.
Cheers
CAL
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Evil and Chaos
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Post subject: Space Marines. Posted: Fri Oct 20, 2006 2:00 am |
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Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
Posts: 20887
Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire
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Certainly. I'd expect a Champion to be prepared to organize / visit as many groups as possible.
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consectari
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Post subject: Space Marines. Posted: Fri Oct 20, 2006 2:15 am |
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Joined: Thu May 18, 2006 7:36 pm
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Location: On the Ohio river, USA
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Since I personally do not favor the air assault, of course, I'm going to say it needs work. I think it should have more flexibility in playing styles to be the base list.
Perhaps the current list (with a few minor changes) would form the basis of a good air assault specialist army list.
While an army champion would be needed, this type of revision needs major support from the community. Input needs to come from players outside those few the Champion can access personally. Any input should also be based on hard gaming facts.
This is not a simple undertaking and could cause drastic changes to the Codex list.
You might get an AC that wants to add all sorts of new units to the list. 
All kidding aside, I think E&C would make a fine AC, as would Neal. Any AC just has to make sure that if he pitches something new, not to get hung up on it if it's shot down.
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Markconz
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Post subject: Space Marines. Posted: Fri Oct 20, 2006 4:59 am |
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| Purestrain |
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Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 10:43 pm
Posts: 7925
Location: New Zealand
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All the revision proposals for the marine list that are commonly being used, are fairly extensive. An AC is required I think.
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Lion in the Stars
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Post subject: Space Marines. Posted: Fri Oct 20, 2006 7:21 am |
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Joined: Fri May 13, 2005 11:01 pm
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Yes, Marines need a major fix.
While Marines are known to deploy directly (Air Assault/Drop Pod), it's only one way they operate. IA3's Marine/Titan/IG attack, spearheaded by the Marines and 4 Warhounds was a very effective Marine advance, that I don't think would work in-game (Haven't gamed it in Epic to see if it would work, sorry, and the IA3 scenario is written for 40k). I've written up a mission brief, and I challenge Epicomms to see if the Marines can beat the Tau without using Teleporting Termies or Air Assaults. Consider the gauntlet thrown. *clang!*
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blackhorizon
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Post subject: Space Marines. Posted: Fri Oct 20, 2006 9:13 am |
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Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2005 9:40 pm
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Location: Netherlands
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Coming from Battlefleet Gothic, where at the moment a similar discussion is going on regarding Space Marines (see SG forum).
Basically, in BFG, Space Marines excel at Planetary Assault missions but lack in standard fleet engagements. Just like codex astartes intended. Not too much power to the marines. The Imperial Navy should be ablo to beat them in space.
Now, there are people, and who's to blame, that the Space Marines need to be stronger in fleet engagements in the game. Why? Because it is no fun only doing planetary assaults with them.
One of the ideas of making Space Marines the hit & run/boarding/teleport specialists in the game. Basically something they NEED to do in Epic as far as I can read in the Epic discussions.
So, in my opinion, the baseline in both debates, BFG and Epic, is that what are the Space Marines? Stay true to the codex astartes and let them be specialised (air assault <-> plantery assault) or make them a more varied army to have more fun/balance in games.
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thurse
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Post subject: Space Marines. Posted: Fri Oct 20, 2006 9:36 am |
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Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2006 3:13 pm
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Location: Dundee, Scotland
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Hi!
I agree 100% with Hena proposal.
You can already add armor to infantry in the blood angel list ( predator, vindicator, and baals). I've played this list and It really increases the power of tactical formations, especially if the tanks are good in FF.
Finally, I'm not sure if the vindicator should be MW or +1FF attack.
Cheere
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Mojarn Piett
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Post subject: Space Marines. Posted: Fri Oct 20, 2006 12:26 pm |
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Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 7:35 am
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Location: Finland
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I admit I don't know very much about E:A but I thought to add my 2 eurocents as long as the talk isn't about specific mechanics and finer points of the game. All of the blather below is just M(NS?)HO so I am NOT saying I'm more right (or wrong for that matter) than anybody else.
As there seems to be two schools about what marines should be like (air assault only vs. both air and ground assault) I'll address that point first.
Personally, I think they should be both. Reason? Well, there are two reasons.
1) The fluff explanation. Marines are _elite_ soldiers with cobined arms as well as planetary assault training. Not just airborne (spaceborne?) troops. They train for each and every method of warfare there is. For decades. Up to and Including combined arms operations. I've never heard that the Codex restricts them to purely planetery drops.
2) The game explanation. Is it fun to always play with the same kind of force? With only minor variations? Furthermore, if your opponent knows he's always gong to be facing Thunderhawk/drop pod assaults and teleporting terminators he's going to adjust his army accordingly and in addition to playing with the same kind of force every time you are going to _face_ the same kind of force every time. With only minor variations. Gets a bit dull after a while, I think.
Then we get to what marines should be like IMO. The marines should be a scalpel with a sledgehammer if you excuse this terrible figre of speech.  Meaning that, handled correctly, marines should be able to maneuver so that they can achieve a local superiority in one point of the battlefield to achieve a breakthrough. With or without air assault. They should be able to maneuver well but when they hit they hit hard. Unlike Eldar who hit and run and basically dance around their opponent to wear him down marines mean business when they do get involved. And if not timed right they suffer accordingly.
To sum up: marines should be versatile. Handled correctly they should be able to force the enemy to fight on their own terms. They should be able to win a war of attrition with Eldar and a war of maneuver with IG. They should always lose a war of hit and run with Eldar and a war of meatgrinding with IG.
Well, I think I'll step off the soapbox for now and let you gurus get to business.
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Evil and Chaos
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Post subject: Space Marines. Posted: Fri Oct 20, 2006 4:02 pm |
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Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
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Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire
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1) The fluff explanation. Marines are _elite_ soldiers with cobined arms as well as planetary assault training. Not just airborne (spaceborne?) troops. They train for each and every method of warfare there is. For decades. Up to and Including combined arms operations. I've never heard that the Codex restricts them to purely planetery drops.
This is my number one reason for wanting to see the list modified... the current list only allows one competative build which reflects the Marines' combined arms methods of war (The Airborne Assault). This is a flaw.
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consectari
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Post subject: Space Marines. Posted: Fri Oct 20, 2006 4:58 pm |
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Joined: Thu May 18, 2006 7:36 pm
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Location: On the Ohio river, USA
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I know it's going to be hard to balance, but if unit costs are reduced to improve ground based assaults, then transport costs will HAVE to go up so that air assaults don't just become even more attractive/unbalanced.
Change 'Vindicator' upgrade to 'Armour' upgrade. Allow taking 1 - 2 of following types: Predator Annihilator, Predator Destuctor, Vindicator.
I like this very much, but can the LR be included as part of the upgrade? ?Devs & termies can already take LRs and they are the 2 inf formations that no one's complaining about.
The LR is the signature vehicle of the SM. ?There should be more of them on the table. ?At the current cost (and some say even at 375), they aren't that effective, so it shouldn't be that big a problem. ?Plus dragging along LRs will cause you to lose Rhinos, so formation size won't increase.
Remove Vindicator formation.
Why would this need to be removed? ?It's an AV with a specific purpose. ?If facing a fortified enemy, you need a formation of Siege tanks. ?That's just further reducing the flexibility of what is supposed to be a generic list. ?I don't see any harm in keeping it. ?We don't want to start hacking up the existing list in the attempt to fix it.
The problem that I see is that this mod would allow preds to get more predators. So I might disallow preds from getting 'Armour' update.
The pred formation needs help too. ?If you limit them to vindi upgrades, they aren't getting anything they don't already have. ?
Under current costing, Preds & Vindis cost the same. ?Adding one shouldn't be much of an advantage over adding the other. ?They should contribute the same for the same points. ?If they aren't, this needs to be addressed.
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Lion in the Stars
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Post subject: Space Marines. Posted: Fri Oct 20, 2006 5:52 pm |
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Joined: Fri May 13, 2005 11:01 pm
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Just one real-world note: US Armored Cavalry (which is conceptually closest to the Astartes forces) integrates armor at the Company level (the basic maneuver element in the Army) with one Armor platoon and 2 mechanized infantry platoons per company. Since the platoons of a company rarely operate independently, it would make sense for the Astartes to operate similarly.
In the present list, that is how marines operate, but I think that it would work better for the various Infantry 'platoons' (ie, Detachments) to be able to get the 'Armor' upgrade. Space Marines operate in much smaller maneuver elements than any modern military force except Special Ops, but Space Marines are more like a conventional force than Special Ops. This means that Space Marines would attach armor to smaller formations of men than is common practice presently (ie, the 'Armor' upgrade).
Just one other thing: Following the example of the Eldar list (don't hit me yet), where Falcons cost more as an upgrade to Aspect Warriors (62.5 points each) than they do as a separate formation (50 points each), I think that the Armor Upgrade should come at a higher cost than the per-unit cost of the Tanks in a formation. Simply put, larger formations are worth more than smaller ones in Epic, especially with ATSKNF, but you can't simply raise the cost of the base units in the formation. You have to make the upgrades cost a little more than the base cost of the unit that you're adding to the formation.
I'd leave the upgrades at 75 points for everything but Land Raiders, and cost Land Raiders at 100 points to start.
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