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Where do marines stand?
Blarg D Impaler
 Post subject: Where do marines stand?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 6:46 pm 
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I'm sorry to ask a potentially stupid question because I don't get a chance to pay much attention to this section of the boards.  What happened to the talk of giving the Vindicator (due to the Demolisher Cannon) a +1 Attack on firefights?  Part of the reason why it is important is because this was supposed to affect the IG LRuss Demolisher, Baneblade and Stormhammer.  While the LRuss Demolisher may not have needed the improvement (I don't remember) the Baneblade and the Stormhammer definately needed the improvement.

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Blarg D Impaler
 Post subject: Where do marines stand?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 8:23 pm 
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(Hena @ Oct. 12 2006,13:47)
QUOTE
I think vindicator cannon changes died away due to the things that would happen to IG.

WHat things are going to happen to the IG?  Is there a central thread that lists all of the changes similar to what this one is like?

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Honda
 Post subject: Where do marines stand?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 11:53 pm 
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Note, that this is the reason for my wording (which obviously failed). I meant that the formation which gets free dreads cannot be transported into battlefield. Meaning no thunderhawks, LCs or pods.


So why would anyone want to take that formation? Seems like a wasted upgrade. So I would say that it is an interesting idea, but less effective if it is restricted by transport.

Also, since a Dread can be transported by all of the options that you eliminated, what is the logic behind that decision?

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Lord Inquisitor
 Post subject: Where do marines stand?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 12:06 am 
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(Honda @ Oct. 12 2006,18:53)
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So why would anyone want to take that formation? Seems like a wasted upgrade.

To garrison...

Personally, I think it is okay to give free dreads to formations in T-hawks or drop pods too - they're going to be slow after landing, and it's not like we see lots of dreads in thunderhawks as it is.

Perhaps even 1 free dread for not taking transports, and another free one for garrisoning?
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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Where do marines stand?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 2:39 am 
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I think dreads-for-rhinos, especially when made contingent on Garrisoning in the GT scenario, is the wrong path to tread.



Dreads should be paid for, either as an upgrade, as a seperate formation, or (my preferred solution) as both.


Giving free dreads to formations without rhinos just makes the air-cav lists stronger, without solving the real problem of Dreadnoughts, which is that they don't give back in punch the capability they take away in manueverability.

As a Marine player (And thus I should be ignored!), I think Dread Formations would solve the Dreadnought 'problem'.

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consectari
 Post subject: Where do marines stand?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 3:46 am 
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This is why we need a head of the ERC.  Someone to step in and say, "a dread formation is something we pursue" or "it's too late to add to the codex list, put it somewhere else".

While I'm sure I'm not as experienced as E&C, I play Marines as well.  I just want to get some things set in stone, so I can play a bit more balanced.

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Steve54
 Post subject: Where do marines stand?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 8:15 am 
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Do any of these changes actually make a difference?

Fair enough the assault resolution (whichever) will help SM, increased attack bike speed makes them a viable option and the wider ability to add hunters will help but what else?

375 for 4 LR - why would you take them? any other armies main tank comprehensively outguns them with better range and will probably outnumber them 2-1. why would you take them over terminators?

275 for 4 preds - basically a one shot unit - move/or double them, shoot, and then they die easily

275 for 4 wwinds - one shot unit again - very fragile and range isn't great enough to hide them

Vindicators - are now a quite slow undergunned unit instead of a very slow undergunned unit

Tacticals - still too expensive , with very little hitting power, and little mobility as rhinos die so quickly

Characters - nothing appears to be happening to upgrade characters- as far as I can see because the ERC won't accept that the only useful character is the Chaplain due to Inspiring. You rareky see librarians, captains or SC

Nome of the changes make SM armour or tavtical companies a competitive choice in tournament lists. The only one of them I would ever consider taking is a tactical company to sit on the base as the BTS but even then a beefed up devastator formation is a better option
Any competitive SM list will stil be chosen from termies, assault, devs, TH, LC, warhounds, T-bolts, bikes and speeders

The issues that I believe need addressing are -

Rhinos - too fragile, they get stripped away so easily leaving their troops without mobility. Why not make them a 4+ save? surely they should be tougher than a gunwagon?

Tacticals - too expensive. lack mobilty, hitting power. Tougher rhinos help - then drop points and add the option of adding a WWind - would give a bit of mid range hitting power  

SM armor - too expensive, too short ranged, too fragile - if dropping rhinos to 4+ armour why not drop preds to 3+? at least gives them a bit of survivabilty. How about increasing range of preds and LR weapons to 60 - it would at least give them a chance against other armor

Characters - how about making all characters inspiring and/or  a free SC with a Captain.

The changes that seem to be set upon are a step in the right direction but don't go far enough to actually change much - perhaps a symptom of the lack of AC

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Tiny-Tim
 Post subject: Where do marines stand?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 8:55 am 
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(Steve54 @ Oct. 13 2006,08:15)
QUOTE
Any competitive SM list will stil be chosen from termies, assault, devs, TH, LC, warhounds, T-bolts, bikes and speeders

Here, here.

A list using the above is a challenge to face, anything else and I am looking for the win before I start.

Tim

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Chroma
 Post subject: Where do marines stand?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 12:00 pm 
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(Steve54 @ Oct. 13 2006,08:15)
QUOTE
Characters - nothing appears to be happening to upgrade characters- as far as I can see because the ERC won't accept that the only useful character is the Chaplain due to Inspiring. You rareky see librarians, captains or SC

Steve54, I highly recommend you read some of the comments on Librarians in the following thread on the Specialist Website.

Some discussion on Librarians.

One thing to remember is that Librarians have the option to use a MW close combat *OR* MW firefight attack and can also use MW in support situations.

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Honda
 Post subject: Where do marines stand?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 1:56 pm 
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As a Marine player (And thus I should be ignored!), I think Dread Formations would solve the Dreadnought 'problem'.


Personally, I think that this is a "nice" to have, but I have yet to experience or see a game on the balance because, "like Wow!, if I'd only had four dreadnoughts over there, I could have pulled this out".

Not trying to slam the idea necessarily, but that isn't the problem.

The issue is that SM because of their smaller unit sizes are not as effective in assaults against other larger formations. The list really begins to suffer when you start losing even one unit out of a formation.

So to get back to Steve54's comments, I completely agree that dropping armor down by a few points here and there isn't going to solve the problem, because in the end, the points saved don't allow you to purchase more formations that could prevent the 3rd turn wilt.

I will state this for the record yet again (JMO), the key to keeping the SM consistently effective in the long term, from a game perspective, is to make their smaller formations better able to take on others' larger formations. One approach is to give them a mechanism that slows down their current attrition rate.

One way to accomplish that is by adjusting the costs so that SM players are able to purchase more units to help distribute hits as well as add more units to the attack. The problem with that approach is that it's not really feasible to drop the costs of unit to the point where you could get 1-2 more formations of the devastator/assault/tactical cost range.

If you accept that assumption (and I'm not saying that everyone does), then another less intrusive (from a game play perspective) approach is the Leaders remove 2 BM and removing the opponents bonus for outnumbering the small SM formations. These two "minor" tweaks, allow SM infantry formations to take on larger opponents, and have a chance of weathering the assault better. It does not make them invincible, because the bottom line is that the basic formation sizes for the SM have not changed, nor is the relative number of formations increased.

So you get "effectiveness" where you need it the most, without unhinging the entire list.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Where do marines stand?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 2:44 pm 
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Rhinos - too fragile, they get stripped away so easily leaving their troops without mobility. Why not make them a 4+ save? surely they should be tougher than a gunwagon?


I agree that Marine armour is in general rather underprotected. Moving to 4+ on rhinos might help.

Tacticals - too expensive. lack mobilty, hitting power. Tougher rhinos help - then drop points and add the option of adding a WWind - would give a bit of mid range hitting power  

I use Tacticals all the time, they're fine. Having a whirlwind might be interesting but is unnessesary IMHO. This is genuinely one for a variant list.

SM armor - too expensive, too short ranged, too fragile - if dropping rhinos to 4+ armour why not drop preds to 3+? at least gives them a bit of survivabilty. How about increasing range of preds and LR weapons to 60 - it would at least give them a chance against other armor

Agreed, Predators would look like a useful choice to me if they had 3+ armour.

Characters - how about making all characters inspiring and/or  a free SC with a Captain.

All Marine characters need Fearless.

Bam, instant fix.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Where do marines stand?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 4:43 pm 
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Consectari:  Greg Lane is the rules review champion.  He is in charge of setting the agenda and pace of the core review, so to that extent there is a nominal leader.  I think the army list review will go very quickly once that's done.

===

In general, I see a lot of "SM units are always outnumbered and outgunned" comments.  That's true and it should always be true.  In a game that is focused on issues of morale and command and control TSKNF is wickedly tough.

Personally, I think the boosts mentioned are plenty.  SMs aren't that far out of line to begin with.  They win their fair share of games and tournaments with a few optimized force orgs (Thawks/Termies/Warhounds).  Since those forces do fine competitively, the goal of changes should be primarily to boost the "low performers" and encourage more variety in force composition for competitive armies.

SM armor, the main low performer, is dropping almost 10% in points and picking up various minor benefits.  That's a big deal.  The TSKNF changes give the force an overall, if modest, boost.

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