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White Scars Review
The_Real_Chris	Post subject: White Scars Review Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 1:39 am
Brood Brother Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 4:45 pm Posts: 8139 Location: London	Matt Otter has probably the most experience with these guys. Anyone else use them at all? Besides any changes to the core marine list and how they would carry over, what else sticks out here? I've used them (I must confese only twice), but the army list is a somewhat bizzare document. Leaving aside any actual balance changes it seems to leave hunters off almost entirely, has the persistent Warhound cost misprint and allows Whirlwinds to take Vindicators (well, you might want to). _________________ If using E-Bay use this link to support Tac Com! 'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' – Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913 "Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography." General Plumer, 191x
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dafrca	Post subject: White Scars Review Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 1:55 am
Brood Brother Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 6:02 pm Posts: 10956 Location: Burbank, CA, USA	The one and only time I saw it used was by a player who sold off all his Epic is discust with GW a while ago. No one else I know used them. dafrca _________________ "Every Man is a But Spark in the Darkness"               - Cities of Death, page 59 Come fight me, if you dare...... http://dd-janks.mybrute.com
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J0k3r	Post subject: White Scars Review Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 11:08 am
Brood Brother Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 11:18 pm Posts: 876 Location: Edinburgh, UK	I am toying with building a whitescar army, but i think ill build it to the codex list.  In addition to chris's points, my  problems with this list are: -do the whitescar bikes get +1 attacks or not.  Datafax says yes, unit list says no.  If yes, then they are worth the points id say. -the limit on all whitescars have to planet fall if one formation limits the total deployable size of the army to 60 units(1 battle barge worth) plus thunderhawks.  Ok, your rarely going to ever need more than this, but it feels wrong. More importantly, you cant take speeders and bikes need to be inserted by t'hawk.   If I were going to modify this rule I might limit the units that can start on the board during a planetary assault to fast moving ones eg light vehicles, skimmers and bikes.  Makes it more workable and gives the feeling of a marauding horde supported by pinpoint strikes where needed.  Altenatively you could let bikes be inserted by drop pod. - would the chapter really give up on the usefulness of teleporting termies just so that they can get transport?  I mean, you could pick them up with a T'hawk afterwards easily enough.  And if you want to deploy them from t'hawk or drop pods then they cost 675 points sans land raiders. - little nigglly thing: make sure that the pdf can actually be read by Adobe.  I had to download a freeware PDF viewer to read the datafax properly. Overall I think the list shows great promise- its flavoursome and does capture some of the spirtit of the whitescars but reeks of not being playtested or though about carefully.  It really annoys me that this is an official list when there are so many high quality unofficial lists that are way better thought out and constructed (ie space wolves, ellysians etc).  On the plus side I am tempted to go to a tournament sporting 150pt warhounds   Wow, that turned into a rant     _________________ "Do not offend the Chair Leg of Truth; it is wise and terrible." -Spider Jerusalem
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Ilushia	Post subject: White Scars Review Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 11:39 am
Brood Brother Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 10:50 am Posts: 1189	Most of the changes to the list are taken from the 40K scale information in the Index Astartes (Notably the 'Terminators MUST have Land Raiders unless being drop-podded' is taken from there...) The idea in 40K scale is it allows the Terminators to keep up with the rest of the army on their own. in Epic scale with Thunderhawks and Landing Craft it doesn't feel right (And the points costs DEFINITELY don't). Dunno how you'd go about fixing it. This is likewise where the bit about 'everything must deep strike via drop pods if anyone does' comes from. Once again, works nicely in 40K scale... Totally not worth it in Epic scale. I like the idea that they get bigger and better bike formations, that feels right, and that they will always take transports for their guys. It's a 'cool but not practical' list to me as is. Unfortunently I'm not really sure how to make it practical.
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The_Real_Chris	Post subject: White Scars Review Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 12:50 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 4:45 pm Posts: 8139 Location: London	Its one CC attack, 3+. The uit info is right, summery sheet wrong. Having been nobbled by this and used it it does work. Being walkers they zoom into cover a lot, launch long assaults and an 8 strong 3+ marine assault formation (with remember the chance in a review to ignore outnumbering) they are pretty deadly. Two attacks each would be horrendous. _________________ If using E-Bay use this link to support Tac Com! 'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' – Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913 "Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography." General Plumer, 191x
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J0k3r	Post subject: White Scars Review Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 2:05 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 11:18 pm Posts: 876 Location: Edinburgh, UK	Quote (The_Real_Chris @ 02 June 2006 (12:50)) Its one CC attack, 3+. The uit info is right, summery sheet wrong. Having been nobbled by this and used it it does work. Being walkers they zoom into cover a lot, launch long assaults and an 8 strong 3+ marine assault formation (with remember the chance in a review to ignore outnumbering) they are pretty deadly. Two attacks each would be horrendous. Actually I suspect your right- looking at the cost again its equivalent to a 10point increase for walker ability.  +1 attacks would be way too much for such a small points hike.   The bike formation still seems very expensive though-   Dropping the cost increase to just under 5 points per model would allow a unit cost of 350 points.  the question is how much of a force multiplier does a formation size of 8 give you and is it really worth 400 points?     Given the other limitations of the list I think this offsets a reduced cost to the bikes. _________________ "Do not offend the Chair Leg of Truth; it is wise and terrible." -Spider Jerusalem
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dptdexys	Post subject: White Scars Review Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 2:13 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 11:39 pm Posts: 1974 Location: South Yorkshire	I've used the White Scars list around ?2 dozen times over the last 2 years or so?and faced them only once or twice. They do seem slightly worse off than codex marines due to the list limitations. The detatchments that make the list different are No Devastator formations,Land Raider formations or Vindicator formations (the later 2 or rarely used anyway).This does make them more fast strike orientated though.The lack of heavy Titan Legion support does not effect the list as they are rarely used in an effective tourney list. Plus the inclusion of Terminators with slighlty cheaper LRs does give a tough BTS(not the best way to use termies though as they then lack the ability to air assault or teleport which is there best use). The Bike Squadron used with the 2 attacks are way too overpowered but without are slightly over pointed even with the walker ability(not worth the 80 pts on top). After discussions with other players we mostly agreed the Bike Squadron was worth 350/375 or 400 if given a free character, I was discussing this at a Tourney recently (pretty sure it was with Tim Hunt) ?and he thought maybe?a White Scar character called a Khan could be introduced maybe as the free character and having it less powerful than a normal character (maybe leader and extra CC attack or Commander and leader). With some of the codex SM improvements/downgrades suggested it may make the list better but it would still be slightly behind the codex SM list .
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nealhunt	Post subject: White Scars Review Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 3:21 pm
Purestrain Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm Posts: 9617 Location: Nashville, TN, USA	1)  The list needs an editorial overhaul - Warhound point costs and the confusing wording for the drop pod option among other things. 2)  Bikes are a bit too expensive.  375 for the formation would probably be okay.  That would be ~47 points per unit compared to the basic formation cost of 40 per unit.  That pays for Walker and the larger formation size, which is a nice boost for SMs.  It _might_ go down to 350 but that might be too cheap. 3)  The Terminator formation needs an overhaul.  It needs 2 options - LRs or air/planetfall.  No teleport, but you shouldn't have to pay something insane to drop pod them or air assault. 4)  Map over the changes from the SM core list, especially the Hunter access issues. Basically, I don't think it will take much to polish it up. _________________ Neal
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J0k3r	Post subject: White Scars Review Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 4:23 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 11:18 pm Posts: 876 Location: Edinburgh, UK	How about if i post an updated list going on the suggestions made so far?  Then it can iterate from there.  Ill get to it after work tonight. _________________ "Do not offend the Chair Leg of Truth; it is wise and terrible." -Spider Jerusalem
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J0k3r	Post subject: White Scars Review Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 8:32 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 11:18 pm Posts: 876 Location: Edinburgh, UK	Ok, here it is Updated Whitescars v1.1 Changes (highlighted yellow in PDF): -Introduced LR formation -Given terminators LR upgrade.  Cost 275 points to account for lost teleport. -More units have Hunter upgrade -Bike cost 375 points -Introduced Veteran Sergean commander option for Bikes.  Has Leader and +1 MW cc attacks for 25 points.  (I liked the suggestion of  dptdexys  so tried to incorporate it) -Modified Warhound cost (250 ea) -Changed Whitescar transport special rules so that Bikes and scout units do not need to be deployed from drop pods/air.  Would people rather the drop pod restrictions were dropped all together? Let me know your thoughts. _________________ "Do not offend the Chair Leg of Truth; it is wise and terrible." -Spider Jerusalem
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J0k3r	Post subject: White Scars Review Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 10:34 am
Brood Brother Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 11:18 pm Posts: 876 Location: Edinburgh, UK	Cheers for the response chris.  Some explanation for some of your points: The MW attack is a bit much   I simply mapped over the stat line from the SM commander and dropped the SM commander special ability.  It seemed fluffy for the sergeant/khan to have apower weapon.  i can see that it may be too powerful though. And why only for the bikes?

I was thinking of making this available to all detachments, but wasnt sure how it would be taken.  Do other people think they would like to see a lieutenant charater availableacross the board?

Very unessecery (the points cost) - they just become an army of Terminators in Thunderhawks.    

In retrospect I think your right on the cost.  The base cost shouldn't go down from the codex given the effectiveness of terminators.

I'd do the list with the suggested marine changes

For this updated list im keen to keep to the Codex marine prices.  I agree with the changes suggested elsewhere, but dont want to incorporate them until a basic improved whitescar list is agreed on.  

Any other thoughts out there? Iteration 2 of the list will be out tonight, so let me know.