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Marine Leaders aren't Fearless!

The_Real_Chris

Post subject: Marine Leaders aren't Fearless!

Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 1:33 am

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Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 4:45 pm
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Location: London

Always played for some reason these chaps as fearless, tonight I discovered they aren't! Surely if a commissar can make 5 guardsmen fearless a chaplain should have no worries with a marine squad?!

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Ilushia

Post subject: Marine Leaders aren't Fearless!

Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 1:41 am

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Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 10:50 am
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This one's been brought up a few times I believe. I don't really get why Commisars are fearless either. But they are, and yeah... Marine leaders really should make their unit Fearless. Or gain some benefit! Especially Chaplains, who do so in 40K scale to whatever unit they join.

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dafrca

Post subject: Marine Leaders aren't Fearless!

Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 4:18 am

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Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 6:02 pm
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Location: Burbank, CA, USA

One of the isues that was discussed way back in the begining of time (or a year ago, I do not remember for sure) was the fact that based on the fluff, the marines would be a lot stronger, faster, better etc. And that if we tried to make them everything it could/would create a list that was unbalanced.

So the Marines got "They Shall Know No Fear" and thus they did not need Fearless (or that was about how the argument went). Then their leaders received many extras like Commander and Leader. In the end, it was deemed that was enough.

I know many disagree but that was about how it went. :;):

dafrca

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Ilushia

Post subject: Marine Leaders aren't Fearless!

Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 5:05 am

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Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 10:50 am
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I might point out that Commissars aren't Fearless in 40K either. So there's definitely precident to make units which aren't fearless in 40K fearless in Epic. Commissars ARE LD10, same as all Marine leaders, but their biggest advantage is being able to execute the squad-leader if the squad fails a Morale check, which makes the squad automatically pass that Morale check then the Commissar takes over the squad. Which I'm guessing is where the whole 'They're Fearless in Epic!' comes from. I might suggest, sickening though it might be, that Marines only loose 1/2 the units they lose the assault role by when losing an assault. In keeping with the style of ATSKNF being them somewhere between Fearless and normal. They're aware of their own mortality, and WILL flee the field if things look too grim, in order to preserve the chapter and return for the inevitable counter-offensive. But they don't run away in stark terror and flee in every direction. Under that rule if an enemy wins an assault by say 5 points, you loose 2 bases instead of 5 bases. If they only win by 1 point, you lose nothing, but your unit still breaks. Might make marines too good, but it'd certainly fit with their fluff.

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Ilushia

Post subject: Marine Leaders aren't Fearless!

Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 6:09 am

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Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 10:50 am
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Something to remember about Marines: They are never 'run to ground' in 40K scale. They can flee off the edge of the board, but shouldn't do so unless already at the edge of the board. They always rally when falling back. And when they lose an assault, break, and are then caught, they aren't wiped out. They just suffer extra wounds if outnumbered. Marines are really the hardest troops in the galaxy when it comes to morale. The only folks who are 'better' then them are Fearless units, like Chaos, and even they can sometimes be a negative on the player (Like not being allowed to run away from the horrible monster which they can't hurt, think Wraithlords going after Khornate Berserkers). I recognize a lot of that is done in ATSKNF currently, but they always feel to me like they're too fragile when it comes to losing assaults. It's quite likely to see a Tactical Detachment lose most if not all it's members to an assault gone bad. They suffer 1-2 casualties from the assault, then another 2-3 to resolution, even if they start at full strength that's virtually the entire formation!

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Lord Inquisitor

Post subject: Marine Leaders aren't Fearless!

Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 5:32 pm

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Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 7:20 pm
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Location: Norfolk VA USA

Well, Inquisitor Lords are the very best troops in terms of morale in 40K, but that's nit-picking.

I would say only Chaplains deserve to be Fearless, but then Chaplains are already arguably the best choice of the three. I have to admit I've never really thought about it, but I don't think there's any great need.

Lord =I=

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The_Real_Chris

Post subject: Marine Leaders aren't Fearless!

Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 9:04 pm

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Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 4:45 pm
Posts: 8139
Location: London

I was just shocked in a game tuesday night to keep losing my characters to combat results (some extreme dice rolls that night but hey, if they were commissars they would be alive today).

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yme-loc

Post subject: Marine Leaders aren't Fearless!

Posted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 2:26 pm

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Joined: Tue Apr 26, 2005 4:58 pm
Posts: 599

Quote (Ilushia @ 08 June 2006 (05:05))

I might suggest, sickening though it might be, that Marines only loose 1/2 the units they lose the assault role by when losing an assault. In keeping with the style of ATSKNF being them somewhere between Fearless and normal. They're aware of their own mortality, and WILL flee the field if things look too grim, in order to preserve the chapter and return for the inevitable counter-offensive. But they don't run away in stark terror and flee in every direction. Under that rule if an enemy wins an assault by say 5 points, you loose 2 bases instead of 5 bases. If they only win by 1 point, you lose nothing, but your unit still breaks. Might make marines too good, but it'd certainly fit with their fluff.

I am a little confused by this are you suggesting this as a change to the current rule - because as far as I know that is already the rule, marines do take half the casualties for losing an assault???

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Ilushia

Post subject: Marine Leaders aren't Fearless!

Posted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 2:33 pm

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Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 10:50 am
Posts: 1189

You are indeed correct! (Shows how carefully I can read rules for armies I don't play doesn't it!) It does strike me as odd that they're not Fearless while Commissars are, as well.

I suspect that Commissars being Fearless was added as just a way to make IG a little less 'crumple' in assaults. Makes them slightly less likely to be completely wiped out in an assault... Though it does seem awfully odd, all things considered.

I get the feeling that Commissars may actually be better then they should be, personally. Leader I can understand. Inspiring is iffy for me. And Fearless just doesn't feel right to me. But, maybe it's just me.

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