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Price of Hunters

 Post subject: Price of Hunters
PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2006 6:00 am 
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Could someone explain to me why the Hunter, which for all appearences SEEMs to be worse then the Hydra, costs half-again as much as the IG's anti-aircraft gun? I know it has ATSKNF, which is a plus. But it's got worse AA ability (50% chance to hit compared to roughly 66%) plus worse normal firing ability (Once again 50% compared to 66% against vehicles, and inability to fire on infantry while the Hydra can). It has slightly better armor saves at 5+ instead of 6+, but since the IG can park these inside Tank Companies that's rarely an issue... So why the massive rate hike compared to IG? I'd agree ATSKNF should cost a bit, but is it really worth a 25 point increase in a very specialized weapon?


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 Post subject: Price of Hunters
PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2006 7:55 am 
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I think its firing range of 60cm is worth a lot of points. And it is the only SM unit with such long range.


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 Post subject: Price of Hunters
PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2006 7:57 am 
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I don't see where you get these figures from two shots at AA5+ or at AA5+ is not 66% chance to hit.

The Hunters 1 at AA4+ is pretty comparable to the Hydras two at AA5+ as are their AT stats. The only area the Hydra has a distinct advantage is in AP.

The key advantage the Hunter has is its far superior range 60-45cm

In my opinion Hunters are reasonably fairly priced the only alterations I would like to see are the ability to add Hunters to armour formations and perhaps make the upgrade Add one or two Hunters

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 Post subject: Price of Hunters
PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2006 9:13 am 
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Quote (Hena @ 23 May 2006 (09:09))
Quote (Steve54 @ 23 May 2006 (09:57))
I don't see where you get these figures from two shots at AA5+ or at AA5+ is not 66% chance to hit.

The Hunters 1 at AA4+ is pretty comparable to the Hydras two at AA5+ as are their AT stats.

2 * 5+ is better than 1 * 4+. As the 5+ thing has the chance to hit twice. But I agree with the rest.

Statistically 2*5+ will hit more often then 1*4+. Which is better 2/3 or 1/2? That's basically what you're looking at here. 2 rolls where 2/6 results will get you a success on each roll. Hence 1/3 for each dice, and 2 dice. 66% roughly. The only place I see the Hunter being better is having an extra 15cm of range. Which is very nice, don't get me wrong. I'm just wondering if it's really nice enough to make up for the lower number of shots, lower hit rate and lack of secondary weaponry on the vehicle, plus being worth extra points. It's got a 5+ save instead of 6+ which would be very nice, were it not for the fact that the Hydra is almost always fielded inside a nice big squad of tanks, which can absorb fire for it.


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 Post subject: Price of Hunters
PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2006 9:36 am 
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I'd love for Predator and Land Raider detachments to be able to take Hunters. That's exactly the kind of place I'd expect to find them. Yes, they cover infantry, but they can do that effectively by playing close-support too.

While Initiative 1+ is nice, it doesn't seriously detract from the vehicle's primary job to be Initiative 2+. Being able to shoot aircraft (which doesn't require an activation roll anyway other then that you can't be broken). But yes, I can understand that and ATSKNF pushing the abilities of the vehicle up enough to cost more. It just feels odd to me that an item which seems decidedly worse costs more based on things which rarely affect it's usual battlefield role. But this may just be me.


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 Post subject: Price of Hunters
PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2006 3:28 pm 
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I'm sure that maths does not work - by that logic 2 rolls at 4+ have a 100% chance to hit




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 Post subject: Price of Hunters
PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2006 3:36 pm 
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I think nearly everyone agrees that the Hunter needs a tweak of some kind.

Personally, I'm sort of inclined to give it a +1 to hit and make it available for armor formations.

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 Post subject: Price of Hunters
PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2006 4:00 pm 
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Quote (Ilushia @ 23 May 2006 (03:13))
[Statistically 2*5+ will hit more often then 1*4+. Which is better 2/3 or 1/2? That's basically what you're looking at here. 2 rolls where 2/6 results will get you a success on each roll. Hence 1/3 for each dice, and 2 dice. 66% roughly.

Math ... bad ... my head ... asplode

OK, so (ignoring range differences) statistically the Hydra does have better to-hit potentential, but the real probabilities are:

44.44% chance of 0 hits (4/6 * 4/6 ) * 100%
44.44% chance of 1 hit ?(4/6 * 2/6 + 2/6 * 4/6) * 100%
11.11% chance of 2 hits (2/6 * 2/6) * 100%


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 Post subject: Price of Hunters
PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2006 4:38 pm 
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Quote (nealhunt @ 23 May 2006 (15:36))
I think nearly everyone agrees that the Hunter needs a tweak of some kind.

Personally, I'm sort of inclined to give it a +1 to hit and make it available for armor formations.

That'd be wonderous. That'd make it what? AT 3+/AA 3+? I think that'd work quite nicely. Along with giving armored formations the ability to take it (So you have more then Rhinos when it comes to standing between it and enemy AT weaponry).


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 Post subject: Price of Hunters
PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2006 4:51 pm 
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I second the 'tweaking' motion.  That or a price drop - whichever is more palatable to the public.

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 Post subject: Price of Hunters
PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2006 5:49 pm 
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I think AA3+ would go a long way towards sorting out the hunter, as would giving more formations the hunter upgrade.  

I would question  it getting AT3+ though as no other marine vehicle has AT3+ weapons.  Combined with its 60cm range this may lead to choosing it as an anti armour asset first and foremost which seems wrong.

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 Post subject: Price of Hunters
PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2006 6:14 pm 
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Quote (J0k3r @ 24 May 2006 (17:49))
I think AA3+ would go a long way towards sorting out the hunter, as would giving more formations the hunter upgrade. ?

I would question ?it getting AT3+ though as no other marine vehicle has AT3+ weapons. ?Combined with its 60cm range this may lead to choosing it as an anti armour asset first and foremost which seems wrong.

Well, it does fire self-guided long-range HK missiles after all... It wouldn't surprise me particularly if that'd be the kind of missions it'd get used for. It's sortof like the German AA guns during the 2nd world war. Sure they were 'designed' to kill aircraft, but you point them at a tank and they'd punch nice big holes in it simply because of the velocity the shells needed to reach altitude. These are self-guided missiles, admittedly, but the same basic idea holds true. The weapons contain powerful explosive warheads to destroy tanks. I dunno if AT 3+ is OK or not. But I'd consider 75 points a good price for it at AT 3+/AA 3+.


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 Post subject: Price of Hunters
PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2006 9:15 pm 
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Statistically:
The hunter has 1/2 chance of hitting.
The hydra has 4/9 chance of inflicting at least one hit (which about 5% worse than the hunter)
So the hunter wins out on chances of scoring a hit, but the hydra does have a 1/9 chance of inflicting two hits.

The range thing is significant, though. The hydra has an 'exclusion zone' of 6362cm^2, the hunter, 11310cm^2. That's over two thirds more area of the board covered by flack.

As a suggestion, what would people think of hunter formations? E.g. allowing Whirlwinds to be comprised of a mixture of whirls and hunters? This works well with the actual blister pack, too...

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