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Would anyone object to Land Raiders with FF4+?
The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Would anyone object to Land Raiders with FF4+?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 10:14 am 
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Anyone at all? :)

Can anyone explain how these chaps with 4 lascanon, 2 Hve Bolter and an AI managed to have less than a 5 man tactical squad, vindicator or Leman Russ? Instead they are equal to Imperial Guard, Razorbacks and Whirlwinds!

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Enderel
 Post subject: Would anyone object to Land Raiders with FF4+?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 10:40 am 
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Don't play EA marines, but it would make sense. Especially as old style land raiders used to have the proximity grenade launchers around them (as did Rhino's I believe).  Increase in FF could be reflected as having frag launchers as an optional extra for more points, or as a freebie as they already cost alot!

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Enderel
 Post subject: Would anyone object to Land Raiders with FF4+?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 11:07 am 
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Quote (Hena @ 27 April 2006 (10:57))
Normal land raider doesn't have frags. But I do think that it should have equal FF to leman russ. Then again I probably would like both to be 5+ :D.

Umm yeah they seem to have disappeared from mk 3 onwards. Wouldn't be to hard for people to make some though, after all it's only sets of three tubes stuck on!

The other purpose they use to have was to launch smoke grenades, that could be interesting to add in!  :D

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Hojyn
 Post subject: Would anyone object to Land Raiders with FF4+?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 12:04 pm 
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I certainly wouldn't! ?:)

That, and a price decrease would be nice too. But decreasing the price isn't enough in my opinion.

At FF4+ and 350 points for 4 Land Raiders, I would definitely play them. Otherwise, well... I'd think twice.

How about a 6 strong LR detachment at 525 or 550 points ? Wouldn't that make them more attractive as well ?
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Ghe'dahlg
 Post subject: Would anyone object to Land Raiders with FF4+?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 1:10 pm 
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Well I like Land Raiders as they are there is only that they cannot carry formation they are not bought with. I would like to see them carry other formations as WE.

The 5+ FF is strange to me but not too unbelievable because I mainly manouver my Land Raiders to hit my enemies tank forces with their nice AT4+ weaponry :;):
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Lord Inquisitor
 Post subject: Would anyone object to Land Raiders with FF4+?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 1:26 pm 
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I've been grumbling about this since I started E:A. It makes no sense, they should definately be FF4+.

The next issue after this is the massive discrepancy between Leman Russ and predators and so forth in armour save, but that's another matter.

I feel that the LR could be changed to 4+ and balance wouldn't be affected.

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Would anyone object to Land Raiders with FF4+?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 3:27 pm 
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We played and it worked fine, allowing Land Raiders to purchase the "Land Raider' upgrade.

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semajnollissor
 Post subject: Would anyone object to Land Raiders with FF4+?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 4:33 pm 
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I would agree with having a better FF value for the LR (especially in light of the the FF value of the IG Russ). Either that, or give it an extra attack (+1) for the machine spirit. Bumping the FF to 4+ would probably be less contriversial, though.

This discussion brings up a question I have about the rules review for the SMs - is there a comprehensive list of suggestions anywhere? The one that is/was on this board seemed pretty incomplete. What I'd like to see is a list of all SM units along with any suggested changes (and also a list of all SM detachments along with any suggested changes).
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nealhunt
 Post subject: Would anyone object to Land Raiders with FF4+?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 6:50 pm 
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I don't particularly object, but doesn't the exact same argument hold for the Predator?

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Would anyone object to Land Raiders with FF4+?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 6:53 pm 
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Quote (semajnollissor @ 27 April 2006 (16:33))
This discussion brings up a question I have about the rules review for the SMs - is there a comprehensive list of suggestions anywhere? The one that is/was on this board seemed pretty incomplete. What I'd like to see is a list of all SM units along with any suggested changes (and also a list of all SM detachments along with any suggested changes).

In the absence of a SM army champ I started a file where I've been collecting any suggestions that got a reasonable amount of positive response.

Of course, I don't know when the armies are actually going to be reviewed as the core rules review seems to have stalled out despite badgering Greg.

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Morg
 Post subject: Would anyone object to Land Raiders with FF4+?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 9:36 am 
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Makes sense to me but it never came to my mind as I rarely use them in my games - too less bang for your buck as it stands.

Would you mind posting the list, Neal? I'd like to give the changes a try.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Would anyone object to Land Raiders with FF4+?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 3:43 pm 
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It's not really a proposal.  It's just a list of suggestions from various sources, not all of which I endorse or even think are feasible.  I just collected them because there is no AC and because I didn't want to be accused of biasing ERC by only presenting stuff I personally favor.

There have been several threads discussing what most people feel are front-runner possibilities.  At the risk of sounding pompous, I would suggest a quick search of the boards.  The threads should be relatively easy to identify.

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Would anyone object to Land Raiders with FF4+?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 5:09 pm 
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Quote (nealhunt @ 27 April 2006 (18:50))
I don't particularly object, but doesn't the exact same argument hold for the Predator?

Well, could they have 4 and a 1/2+? :)

4+/5+ is a bit vague in the rules. Who gets which in the Imerpials is a bit hit and miss. Perhaps having AP/AT FF factors would help things? :)

Marine wise FF factors go (roughly)
Landing Craft
Thunderhawk
Devestators/Terminators
Tacticals/Vindicators/Dreadnaughts/Bikes
Land Raiders/Predators/Razorbacks/Whirlwinds/A. Squads/Scouts/Speeders
Rhinos/hunters

Perhaps the title should read, should Land Raiders have FF 3+. Same firepower as a russ, but better aim/machine spirit?

Indeed should the whole marine FF progression be done differently? Leaving aside why Thunderhawks are so good in a firefight (?) how about -

Devestators/Terminators/Land Raiders
Tacticals/Vindicators/Dreadnaughts/Bikes/Predators
Razorbacks/Whirlwinds/A. Squads/Scouts/Speeders
Rhinos/hunters

So predators go to 4+ and Land Raiders to 3+?

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Lord Inquisitor
 Post subject: Would anyone object to Land Raiders with FF4+?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 5:20 pm 
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LRs probably ought to have a better FF than Predators, especially considering that they are more versiltle. Comparing a Chaos LR to a Chaos Pred, the Pred has one twin las and two h. bolters. The LR has two heavy bolters and two twin las.

Ideally, yeah, preds 4+ and LRs 3+ might be best. That's two lots of changes though, and the LR is in more need of the change. I'm not quite sure LRs deserve the FF3+ (they don't really have the small arms of devs and termis), changing both to 4+ would be excellent.

A predator destructor has comporable firepower to a unit of chaos marines, perhaps even more. A dreadnought or attack bike has a FF of 4+. A predator annihilator ONLY has AT weaponry though, perhaps that should remain at 5+ to represent how specialised it is.

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