Marines vs. Titans |
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Pariah Press
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Post subject: Marines vs. Titans  Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2006 3:53 am |
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| Quote (semajnollissor @ 23 Jan. 2006 (16:44)) | I'm not sure what the SM changes are going to be, but I would suggest at least this simple addition:
Add a new character called "marine sargeant" or "veteran marine sargeant" - either will work. Give this character a meltagun (not a multi-melta). |
I think that this is far too micro-managed an approach for Epic. A veteran sergeant is just one man who's authority extends over a stand or two. He's simply to insignifigant to be relevant on the Epic battlefield.
Hey, didn't the old Stormblade model have something called a "Hellion Missile" which was a titan killer (+3 to damage rolls in SM2, or somesuch)? Couldn't we have a hellion missile upgrade for a Marine tank? I bet the Land Raider would be a large enough platform for such a missile! This wouldn't require introducing any big new units or rewriting the last 17 years of Marine fluff, but could give the Marines a fighting change against Titans. Use the usual Devastators, Predators, etc. to knock down the void shields, then hit the Titan with a big ol' missile! Yaaaaahhh!
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Legion 4
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Post subject: Marines vs. Titans Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2006 4:08 am |
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SM1 Off Board Support (could represent OWP, Spacecraft, distant FA, etc.) includes, Heavy Barrage, Vortex missiles, etc. ... These are very useful in Titan busting. The BFG ships in Epic A, should help ...
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Tas
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Post subject: Marines vs. Titans Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2006 4:42 am |
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Agreed L4- a missile barrage from orbit cleans up the Grid Square quite nicely 
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Tas
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Tas
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Post subject: Marines vs. Titans Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2006 4:49 am |
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| Quote (Dwarf Supreme @ 26 Jan. 2006 (01:47)) | | Quote (primarch @ 24 Jan. 2006 (22:30)) | | [This is battle on an epic scale, I think at least one titan should be in anyones force list for a decent sized game. |
I always take at least one Titan. It just doesn't seem like epic to me without one. |
I do too about 75% of the tiem, not always.
If nothing else, the firepower they soak up from the enemy preserves the rest of your army to get to their objectives.
I remember a Warlord I used once who just wouldnt die and he soaked up nearly the whole enemy shooting for 3 turns. By the time he crumpled, I'd gained every other objective and won easily.
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Legion 4
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Post subject: Marines vs. Titans Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2006 5:15 pm |
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As I have said, Great Military Minds think alike, Tas !  Standby for Call for Fire ! 
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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
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Dwarf Supreme
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Post subject: Marines vs. Titans Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2006 5:45 pm |
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| Quote (Tas @ 26 Jan. 2006 (03:49)) | | Quote (Dwarf Supreme @ 26 Jan. 2006 (01:47)) | | Quote (primarch @ 24 Jan. 2006 (22:30)) | | [This is battle on an epic scale, I think at least one titan should be in anyones force list for a decent sized game. |
I always take at least one Titan. It just doesn't seem like epic to me without one. |
I do too about 75% of the tiem, not always.
If nothing else, the firepower they soak up from the enemy preserves the rest of your army to get to their objectives.
I remember a Warlord I used once who just wouldnt die and he soaked up nearly the whole enemy shooting for 3 turns. ?By the time he crumpled, I'd gained every other objective and won easily. |
I've had the same thing work for me, too. My titans are usually firepower magnets. Or maybe I should stop painting a bullseye on them!
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Lion in the Stars
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Post subject: Marines vs. Titans Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2006 5:57 pm |
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I'd just like to make it an option to have a 'competitive' army that does not have a Titan in it.
Right now, I don't think that Marines can face a Titan without one of their own. IIRC, every other army can.
Maybe that's just a hold-over from playing Marines in 40k, where all you can field is strictly marines, or strictly guard, or...
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nealhunt
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Post subject: Marines vs. Titans Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2006 6:08 pm |
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Right now, I don't think that Marines can face a Titan without one of their own. |
I disagree. Anything up to a single Warlord titan is definitely within the ability of marines to handle, without resorting to bringing titans.
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Dwarf Supreme
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Post subject: Marines vs. Titans Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2006 6:09 pm |
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I agree with you, Lion. It would be nice if Marines could tackle a titan without needing a titan of their own. Orbital support is certainly one option.
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semajnollissor
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Post subject: Marines vs. Titans Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2006 10:54 pm |
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| Quote (Pariah Press @ 26 Jan. 2006 (08:53)) | | Quote (semajnollissor @ 23 Jan. 2006 (16:44)) | I'm not sure what the SM changes are going to be, but I would suggest at least this simple addition:
Add a new character called "marine sargeant" or "veteran marine sargeant" - either will work. Give this character a meltagun (not a multi-melta). |
I think that this is far too micro-managed an approach for Epic. ?A veteran sergeant is just one man who's authority extends over a stand or two. ?He's simply to insignifigant to be relevant on the Epic battlefield. |
Well, I mean, whatever you want to call the upgrade doesn't change the fact that such a simple and straightforward addition would help in the fight against titans. I was just trying to form a fluff basis for the desired effect (which was a MW FF extra attack). You could just as easily say that the stand was upgraded to "veteran status" (like the sniper upgrade for scouts) or that the stand was replaced by a veteran stand that had some statline that resulted in some similar effect.
As long as the benefits given by the upgrade aren't skewed against one particular army (I don't think my suggestion is), and the upgrade in given an appropriate point cost (I'd say a single FF MW extra attack is worth 10-25pt, 15pt is my preference) then there won't be any issues in-game.
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Xisor
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Post subject: Marines vs. Titans Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2006 5:44 pm |
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| Quote (Lion in the Stars @ 26 Jan. 2006 (16:57)) | | I'd just like to make it an option to have a 'competitive' army that does not have a Titan in it. |
That's my 'hang up' too. The thing is, Marines *should* be able to do this. In fluff terms, they have the ability. Tactical(and Devastator) squads *can* take Multi Meltas. The ability to deploy a formation or five of Tacticals(or Devastators) with MW Melta weapon 'outfits' is exactly what a Chapter would use to take on multiple Titans *if* it
1- Couldn't spare a pinpoint attack from the orbital support
2- Couldn't requisition a supporting Titan to combat it
A curious suggestion that has yet went unmentioned(as far as I'm aware) is the idea of allowing 'Escort' Orbital Support. So far in all of Epic: Armageddon no forces include Escort Class Starships, only Capital Ships. The Nova Class Frigate would be excellent for 'sniping' a Titan. No?
Indeed, Marines would be far more likely to do this than any other force (excepting Tau). Indeed, they could also have provision for allowing multiple drop pods.
That is, since the Escorts could number *more* than the 'one starship per side', then a couple of them could deploy two sets of Drop Pod things which in turn *could* have two Landing Zones.
I think this, alongside the MW Tacs or Devs, could go a long way to 'solving' the Problems Marines have. Being restricted to one LZ is a huge problem for the Marines versatility that they really *should* have.
Now I'm rambling, I'll stop.
Xisor
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semajnollissor
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Post subject: Marines vs. Titans Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2006 6:26 pm |
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Wait, I thought you could have as many "landing zones" as you had detachments. I.e. each detachment that drop pods picks its own LZ. That has to be right, because otherwise 2 planetfalling landing craft would have to land in the same place (roughly), and that's not how we've played it.
Am I wrong? I know it wouldn't be the first time.
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Chroma
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Post subject: Marines vs. Titans Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2006 6:52 pm |
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| Quote (semajnollissor @ 31 Jan. 2006 (17:26)) | | Wait, I thought you could have as many "landing zones" as you had detachments. I.e. each detachment that drop pods picks its own LZ. That has to be right, because otherwise 2 planetfalling landing craft would have to land in the same place (roughly), and that's not how we've played it. |
From the FAQ:
Q: Let?s say I have a Battle Kroozer. I also
happen to have four Ork Landas. Do thay
all have to land within 15cm of the same
drop zone marker or is it possible to set
up multiple drop zones? Or, is the only
way to have multiple drop zone markers
to get multiple spacecraft?
A: Each transport formation may have
its own drop zone. In this example there
could be up to four drop zones, one for
each Landa. If you use multiple drop
zones, you will need to record clearly
which Landa is allocated to each drop
zone.
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Xisor
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Post subject: Marines vs. Titans Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2006 7:31 pm |
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Woops.
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nealhunt
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Post subject: Marines vs. Titans Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2006 8:02 pm |
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| Quote (Xisor @ 31 Jan. 2006 (16:44)) | | Quote (Lion in the Stars @ 26 Jan. 2006 (16:57)) | | I'd just like to make it an option to have a 'competitive' army that does not have a Titan in it. |
That's my 'hang up' too. The thing is, Marines *should* be able to do this. |
Marines can take on titans in a GT setting. There are both tactics and units that the SMs can use against titans to good effect. I think the main problem is that in general analysis, some units are considered "bad" without taking into account the potential presence of titans.
How about a combo like this:
Turn 1: End of turn, garrisoned speeders double behind the titan and fire. Preds double and crossfire.
Turn 2: Sustain w/ Preds. Sustain w/ Speeders.
That's 500 points and relatively easy to set up.
Assuming nothing else fires at a Warlord titan at all, that will likely result in 2-3 points of damage and 5-7 BMs (depending on where the hits came from) with an outside chance of breaking it. Against a Reaver, without Thick Rear Armor, it's 3-4 points of damage and a broken titan. Even if you had to March the Speeders first turn AND move the in Preds second turn to get crossfire range, you're looking at 1-2 points of damage and 3-5 BMs against a Warlord and a good chance of breaking a Reaver.
Given that those are good multi-purpose formations and not dedicated anti-titan units, I think that is a darn fine result. However, the very idea of taking both the maligned Predators and the somewhat questionable Speeder formation in a Space marine army would be snorted at in a derogatory fashion by many people.
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