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Marines vs. Titans

 Post subject: Marines vs. Titans
PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 5:44 pm 
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Okay, so accepting that SM forces can rely on Land Speeders to effectively take on a titan, how would you suggest that an all-SM army take on an AMTL army with multiple titans + assorted other junk?

I don't think that more than 2 Land Speeder detachments in a tourney-sized list is realistic, but against the AMTL, it seems necessary.

I'm not sure what the SM changes are going to be, but I would suggest at least this simple addition:

Add a new character called "marine sargeant" or "veteran marine sargeant" - either will work. Give this character a meltagun (not a multi-melta). Let me suggest that since a multi melta gives both a 15cm MW5+ shot and a MW FF shot, then a simple meltagun would only give the MW FF shot. Since it is on a character, this would be an extra attack. Now, allow for this character to be taken by Assault Marines, Devastators, and Tacticals as a separate upgrade, so they can have both a normal SM character + the sargent character in the same detachment. Price the sargeant upgrade at 10-25pts. For those of you WYSIWYG guys, use the squad leader figure to show which stand has the sargeant.

You might even allow multiple sargents per detachment (maybe one for every 2 stands in the detachment, based on the fluff, but limit 1 per detachment might be okay as well).

I think this suggestion has a few things going for it that the other suggestions I've read don't:

1) The tactics that the marine currently rely on (supported assaults) remain the mainstay tactics.

2) It doesn't require any new models.

3) It fits well in the fluff, while keeping a limit on the number of options available.

4) It offers improvement to several formations, not just one specific formation.


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 Post subject: Marines vs. Titans
PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 6:48 pm 
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Tactics sound reasonable ... but use OWPs, CAS and FA as well ...  No reason to send them in unsupported ...

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 Post subject: Marines vs. Titans
PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 6:50 pm 
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All I know is that 2 quake cannons + carapace landing pad = bad day for marines.

I think doing what you describe would be a difficult feat to pull off. The main problem being that when, once you've moved everyone into position to eliminate the first titan, those detachments are left wide open to destruction by a second titan. Granted, the second titan can only target a single formation, but one of those land speeder formations is going to buy the farm. And of course, you still have to worry about what the other 40-50% of the AMTL army is doing while this is going on. That's why I think the marines need some [small] boosts spread liberally throughout the army, instead of a large boost in a single new formation. Which reminds me, bikes squads should be included in my list of detachments than can get a sargeant.


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 Post subject: Marines vs. Titans
PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 7:05 pm 
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I have doubts that the AMTL/OGBM lists are ever going to be balanced in a GT setting.  Multiple, large WEs are just too far outside what the GT scenario was designed for.

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 Post subject: Marines vs. Titans
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 5:41 am 
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I'll have to agree with you on that, Neal ...  Althought I'd never play in a GT setting ...

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 Post subject: Marines vs. Titans
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 3:02 pm 
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Perhaps someone should make a new GT scenario that is more fair to all armies. That would sure save all the trouble that would be caused by having to "fix" all of the army lists.


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 Post subject: Marines vs. Titans
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 6:21 pm 
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Frankly ... having an AMTL force with 50% TBL made up of Titans (3-4 or more !) + Ordinatus + !?!?!   I've play a lot of Epic games in the past with mostly modified SM1/SM2 rules ... and a force taking on 2, 3+ Titans without any Titans ... is almost ridiculous !  IMO ...   :;):  Or suicidal !!  :oops:

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 Post subject: Marines vs. Titans
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 11:30 pm 
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Quote (Legion 4 @ 24 Jan. 2006 (12:21))
Frankly ... having an AMTL force with 50% TBL made up of Titans (3-4 or more !) + Ordinatus + !?!?! ? I've play a lot of Epic games in the past with mostly modified SM1/SM2 rules ... and a force taking on 2, 3+ Titans without any Titans ... is almost ridiculous ! ?IMO ... ? :;): ?Or suicidal !! ?:oops:

Hi!

I agree. I woould think it would be almost impossible to beat a force of titans with non-titans.

This is battle on an epic scale, I think at least one titan should be in anyones force list for a decent sized game.

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 Post subject: Marines vs. Titans
PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2006 5:51 am 
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Call me "Old School" ... but the logic is ... well ... logical ! ?I think we may be trying to rewrite history here ... or Fluff ! :;): ?If your opponent has 2-3+ Titan and you don't have any ? ? Ouch ! ?:oops: ?:8):




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 Post subject: Marines vs. Titans
PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2006 3:47 pm 
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Quote (primarch @ 24 Jan. 2006 (22:30))
[This is battle on an epic scale, I think at least one titan should be in anyones force list for a decent sized game.

I always take at least one Titan. It just doesn't seem like epic to me without one.

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 Post subject: Marines vs. Titans
PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2006 4:46 pm 
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well maybe the play is Epic because a sigle detachment fights against one titan !!!! :D  :D  :D

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 Post subject: Marines vs. Titans
PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2006 5:02 pm 
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We don't always take Titans ... but if we decide to; then we use 25%-33% of TBL on Titans, Off Board Support (OBS) and CAS ... or if a TL is used 50% on Titans AND, OBS and CAS ... and the rest on Tech Guard/Scutarii (or Skatari) ...  That's the way we do it.  And if your opponent is a AM/TL force ... you better take Titan(s), OBS, CAS and if possible a Deathstrike !

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 Post subject: Marines vs. Titans
PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2006 6:04 pm 
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Well, here is where I'm coming from:

I want to be able to play a pure SM list, and have it be viable. Drop Pods go a long way to help with this, since they are the only unique mechanical advantage the SM's have over other armies. But, drop pod armies fall flat against large groups of titans.

I usually play eldar, and since I don't own any titans or EoVs, I never use them. With my army, sans titans, I can usually hold my own against multiple titans in the GT scenario. This is generally accomplished by 1) hiding for two turns 2) rushing to grab/contest objectives in turn three/four 3) killing the small stuff. This works at least as often as not - in fact, the more titans a list has, the better it works (since that means fewer overall activations for the AMTL or OGBM army). And, the bonus is that it doesn't require a specialized force, so my standard army can do just as well as a TK heavy force.

Now, Eldar have it easy when trying to accomplish these 3 steps, what with their fast, skimmer transports and hit-and-run ability, but they aren't alone in their mastery over titan-heavy lists. Orks and IG can employ similar tactics and still prevail (I'm still assuming no WE's) because, even if they have several formations out in the open for 2-3 turns, they can usually absorb those losses (heck, even if they break, they get to move again) due to their large formation sizes. I assume tyranids, tau, chaos, etc can do the same.

The thing is, marines have the hardest time pulling off the tactic described above. While they are at least as mobile as an IG formation, they don't have as many units in a detachment. So, my logic goes that, being the super-hard shock troops they are, SM's should be able to go toe-to-toe with a titan or two and prevail at least half the time (the advantage going to the SMs due to their weakness against concentrated fire). That's just my opinion based on how I prefer to play. I acknowledge that including a titan of my own would go a long way toward solving the problem, I just want another choice, that's all.


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 Post subject: Marines vs. Titans
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2006 3:44 am 
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Do what works for you ... :;):  But as I said ... if I'm fighting a AM/TL with Titans, Ordinatus, etc. ... I'm taking a Titan, OBS/OWP, CAS and FA ...  :D




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