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Marine Changes
CAL001	Post subject: Marine Changes Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 11:44 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2005 12:54 am Posts: 1927 Location: Australia	Hi all          After posting about the lack of a Marine section in Updates, CyberShadow has inspired me to post a thread to discuss changes to SM that was once on th SG Forum. The aim of this is to see if there is enough interest in the topic to warrant its own section.           Now that I have scratched my head, I beleive that the topics for Marines that where being looked at for changes are as follows:           1.  Vindicators           2.  Assault Bikes           3.  Dreadnaughts           4.  Characters 1. Vindicators. These units have great firepower, but suffer from a lack of pace, my thoughts on the matter are to increase the speed of the unit to 25cm, making it a more viable option in army lists. 2.  Assault Bikes I am not much of a fan of the bikes and have had little to do with them. Looking back I beleive that comments where made about adjusting its speed to mach that of the Bike units. I think that they would also benefit from a change in weapons. With the addition of a flamer weapon type, similar to some of the stuff being mentioned in Salamanders lists. 3.  Dreadnaughts For me the biggest problem with Dreads is how to employ them. Too slo to keep up with a mounted formation. Take up to much room in a Thunderhawk. Same again in a Landing Craft. The best use for assault seems to be a drop pod attack. For defence they are fine to garrison with other forces, but if that was your mobile reserve, no joy. Here I would look to give them their own formation. Something simple : Dreadnaught Formation Four Dreadnaughts of any type.  Upgrades Venerable Dread ( Comd) I would also like to see the addition of additional weapon types to the Dreads. We all know that the blister comes with the flamer, why not give people that option. 4. Characters I have no real issues with the current list of characters. I dont think that there is a need for Techmarines to have a save ability for vehicles in their formation. Liekwise the Apothocary looks good in the command stand, thats all they need to do. My one thought would be to add the Venerable Dreadnaught Character. I would give them the Fearless and Inspiring abilities to represent the SM faith in the abilities and legends of the fallen comrades. Well, enough from me. Join in, lets see what the collective mind can do when challenged. if we het this right, then maybe we can talk about Chapter specific lists getting back onto the boards. I would like to see Black Templars and Blood Ravens get a look. Cheers CAL
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Jaldon	Post subject: Marine Changes Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 1:25 am
Brood Brother Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2003 6:38 am Posts: 720 Location: Utah, pick a Pacific Island the other half of the year.	Vindicator Agreed a speed of 25cms would go far in helping with this unit. Attack Bike I haven't had any complaints using it, and do employ them as a BM creator, so never have felt a change is needed here. Dreadnoughts I would like to see them have there own formation as it would make them more useful, however I do not JJ will go for this one. Bummer because I do like my dreads. Characters I really don't think any more are needed at this level 5:ATSKNF: I really think SM get the short end on outnumbering in assaults and believe a small fix would go a long way in solving this problem. Fix: Opponent gets +0 for outnumbering SM, and a +1 if they outnumber them by two to one or more. This minor change would stiffen up the Emperor's Finest when they face Horde armies. well there is my two cents...... Jaldon _________________ Brave sir Robin, when danger reared its ugly head he bravely turned his tail and fled, Brave sir Robin.
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mageboltrat	Post subject: Marine Changes Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 2:17 am
Brood Brother Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 5:07 pm Posts: 1015	I've been working through an idea with Jaldon on ICQ. My suggestion is giving the Librarian a short range AA shot, my thought was possible AA6+ 30cm. My reasoning for this is 3 fold. 1. Lots of people seem to think that the Librarian is underpowered compared with the Chaplain and the Captain, I don't think that the price should change, it's nice and simple that you pay 50pts and get your choice, (It's also more in keeping with 40K where all 3 choices are about the same level and cost). If the points aren't lowered, it would be nice to see them get a bit of a boost. 2. SM are really lacking in AA.. This would not be a solution to this as the shot is very short range and if you take a Librarian, you are not taking a Captain or Chaplain. but it would help a bit. It's main use would be to put a blast marker on any unit trying to Air Assault the Librarians unit. 3. Is entirely about the Librarian being more charactiful at the moment he just has a big gun. quite a few list now have arcane lightning being represented by AA capability eg, Feral Orc Wyrdboyz and L&D War Altars.  Most Librarians are more powerful than a Wyrdboy in the background most are high Beta or Alpha level. And I personally think that Marines with glowing eyes zapping planes out of the air with warp lightning is cool. _________________ My Photobucket
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zak	Post subject: Marine Changes Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 1:36 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2004 11:57 am Posts: 104 Location: Irvine , Ayrshire ,Scotland	One of the changes to the IG list debated was changing the T-bolts from 2 for 150pts to a much fluffier 4 for 300pts.( not to mention SG sells them in packs of 4 ) This would also have an impact on the SM AA ability if used. _________________ "The Emperor Protects" .........Commissar Zak
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The_Real_Chris	Post subject: Marine Changes Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 3:45 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 4:45 pm Posts: 8139 Location: London	There was an execllent suggestion for leader and ATKNF - a marine leader removes 2 extra BM instead of 1. An excellent addition and after trying it in a few games both myself and my opponent thought they were a subtle, fluffy boost. AT least he was glad I stopped using my scout drop pod suicide formations tactic (they are a great cheap one shot barrage ). _________________ If using E-Bay use this link to support Tac Com! 'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' – Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913 "Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography." General Plumer, 191x
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Jaldon	Post subject: Marine Changes Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 5:33 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2003 6:38 am Posts: 720 Location: Utah, pick a Pacific Island the other half of the year.	Hey TRC nice to see you back posting again:;): Jaldon:p _________________ Brave sir Robin, when danger reared its ugly head he bravely turned his tail and fled, Brave sir Robin.
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CAL001	Post subject: Marine Changes Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 9:49 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2005 12:54 am Posts: 1927 Location: Australia	Hi Justa quick one to say I will be off line from now until the 23rd. I am moving interstate as Army sees fat and will try to post from remote sites whilst in transit. We are not having much joy at the moment with post gang. We managed four pages in the Updates section about wanting a marine section. Alot of you have read the topic without reply, jump in give it your two cents worth so we can discuss marines in general in their own section. maybe we can even effect some changes to the game system that we all enjoy. Things I would like to talk about in a marine section would be: 1.     New Equipment Forge World here our prayers        Mark VII Assault and Devastators        Different Devastators, Bolters etc        Land Raider Crusader        Land Raider Helios        Land Raider Prometheus        Baal Predator        Razorback with Multi Melta        Damoles Command Rhino        Tarantulas        Variant Dreadnaughts        Character Packs - Emperors Champion etc 2.     Chapter Lists        Space Wolves        Blood Angels        Imperial Fists        Black Templars        Dark Angels Enough from me, Merry Christmas to you all and I will see you at the other end. Cheers CAL
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Baduin	Post subject: Marine Changes Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 11:29 am
Brood Brother Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 9:31 pm Posts: 34	I agree with creating a Dreadnought detachment and other proposed improvements. I would suggest the following: --1.  I suggest exchanging most of the rules for They Shall Know No Fear with one simpler: SM halve the number of received BMs and of lossess due to assault resolution, rounding both down. That change would by itself include the results of the following current rules, which would become unnecessary: 1. It takes two Blast markers to suppress a Space Marine unit or kill a unit in a broken formation (ignore any left over Blast markers). 2. Space Marine formations are only broken if they have two Blast markers per unit in the formation. 3. Halve the number of extra hits suffered by a Space Marine formation that loses an assault, rounding down in favour of the Space Marines. 4. When a broken Space Marine formation rallies then it receives a number of Blast markers equal to the number of units, rather than half this number. It would also have the effect of the two additional rules (which were proposed at one time): 5. Leaders will remove 2xBMs in a rally instead of one. 6. SM will halve the number of BMs they possess for the purpose of assault resolution. It would also make Marines even more resistant to BMs. A marine formation getting twice under fire with no would lossess would receive 0BM, while under the previous rules they would receive 2BM (which would have  the effect identical to 1BM under the my rules.) Similarly, a formation losing 2 units twice would receive 2BM, (equal to 4 under the current rules) not 6 BM (equal to 3 under my rules). When a formation with 3 units rallied, it would have 1 BM (equal to 2 under the current rules), not 3 BM. I think that rule is much simpler and easier to use, and effectively improves marines. If necessary, it can be combined with additional modifiers in assault resolution, and for rallying. --2 Vindicators The problem with the right stats for Vindicator is that this kind of the vehicle is not used today. The Vindicator is not a tank, as it lacks turret. It is an self-propelled assault cannon, very similar to German StuG III from WWII - Sturmgesch?tz III (officially Gepanzerter Selbstfahrlafette f?r Sturmgesch?tz 7.5cm Kanone) http://www.achtungpanzer.com/stug.htm http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/sturmi1.html As this kind of weapon was used only by Germans, I have read the Osprey book about it, which quoted German military manuals and reports from officers about this weapon. StuG has been equipped with various 75 mm guns, with range above 3 km. It was a "close support" vehicle, but only compared to other artillery. It belonged to artillery, not to tank branch. It's main use was destroying enemy tanks in defense, and destroying strongpoints, bunkers, machine gun emplacements etc by direct fire in attack. It was always used together with infantry, never independently. It was not used in assaults, like tanks - self propelled guns lacked traversable turrets, and ofter were not even equipped with machine guns, so were usually vulnerable at close range. The only exeption had been ambushes in the defence, with the enemy coming directly in front of the hidden gun. StuG was used in batteries of 6-7 guns, divided in platoons of 2 guns. In the field they were used as a battery, or divided into platoons. It was suggested that guns should not be used singly, if at all possible, and optimally as a whole battery. They were used to destroy infantry heavy weapons and anti-tank weapons. They were to be used against tanks only if necessary. StuGs were supporting infantry, but operating independently. They were very vulnerable at close quarters, as their main weapon was not mounted in a turret, and useless against targets not in front of them. Accordingly they were very vulnerable in cities and woods, and best employed in open terrain. Their advantages were - very low profile, heavy armour, powerful gun, and lower cost in comparison to tanks. I think that the Vindicator isn't heavier then Predator. Although heavier armoured and armed, it lacks the very heavy turret and sponsons. Therefore there is no reason for it to be slower than Predator. I am for increasing its speed to 25 cm. As regards firefight ability, I, contrary to many opinions, would suggest lowering it to 5+. Although its weapon is very powerful, and mounted in the turret of a Leman Russ Demolisher can justify giving it 3+FF value, in Vindicator it is mounted directly into the hull and therefore nearly useless in a firefight. Its task is supporting infantry in firefights, not taking part in them. If a Land Raider, with two sponsons, or a Predator, with two sponsons and a turret, have 5+FF, the Vindicator, which has a stormbolter and a heavy cannon which can be aimed only by turning the whole vehicle, certainly shouldn't have more. The range of the demolisher cannon is ridiculously low. According to Jervis, 30 cm is about 1KM. It is far too low for the battlefield role of Vindicator. That stats make sense when the gun is used in Leman Russ Demolisher which is very similar to M728 Combat Engineer Vehicle. That American vehicle is armed with 165-mm demolition gun. The problem is that such a gun is wholly useless in a Vindicator, which is, as noted above, a fairly exact copy of German StuG Sturmartillerie guns.  I would propose increasing the range of the gun when mounted on Vindicator, with the justification that it could use a longer barrel. As for Army list, I would suggest lowering its points value, and assigning it in pairs. "Upgrade Vindicators (Devastators, Tacticals, not Assault) add 2 Vindicator for 125 pts. Vindicator Detachment - 4 Vindicators for 250 pts." Stats: SPACE MARINE VINDICATOR Type Speed Armour Close Combat Firefight Armoured Vehicle 25cm 4+ 6+ 5+ Weapon Range Firepower Notes Demolisher 45 cm AP3+/AT4+ Ignore Cover --3 Assault Marines Give Assault Marines Planetfall ability. They are the units most fitting for a combat drop. They lack this ability since they cannot take Drop Pods in WH40K. In WH, however, they don't need them, since they can Deep Strike by themselves. I would represent this with Planetfall ability, with an explanation that Assault Marines use special drop pods, from which are ejected while still high in the air, and then land using their own jets. (NB - remember Heinlein's Starship Troopers book?) ---4. Slow and stead rule on the Battle Barge makes it nearly useless in tournament games. I would suggest: Slow and steady. The spacecraft is difficult to manouver in the gravity well, which makes it nearly impossible to coordinate actions with ground units. It may not be used on the first two turns of a battle. However, when no formations starts on board (all are in spacecraft, aircraft or to be teleported), Battlebarge can be used on the first turn.
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nealhunt	Post subject: Marine Changes Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 4:40 pm
Purestrain Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm Posts: 9617 Location: Nashville, TN, USA	I can't say for sure, but I suspect the following will be something close to what is done for the rules review as they seem to be the leading opinions of the various army champions and ERC members and to a lesser extent, Jervis. Vindicators:  Increased speed.  This will make it a viable upgrade for other armor and possibly even assault formations. Assault Bikes:  Increased speed. Dreadnaughts:  No formation.  It's just too much against the background.  May eventually be available in an Iron Hands list or something similar. Characters:  Probably no changes Specifically, Librarian:  Probably no changes.  My personal opinion is that those who think it is underpowered simply don't use a play style to take advantage of its strengths. ATSKNF:  This will almost certainly be tweaked, but the exact nature is still up in the air. Assault Marines:  No changes.  These guys are simply a case of being priced for the optimal use.  Their best use (air assaults) is simply much better than any other use, meaning that balancing points to make them an multi-role formation is nearly impossible. SM Armor:  I'm unsure about this, but I hope for an across-the-board 25 point discount (i.e. 275 points, 375 for LRs), not counting Whirlwinds.  Upgrades would stay 75 points each. _________________ Neal
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Dwarf Supreme	Post subject: Marine Changes Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 4:45 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 8:45 pm Posts: 11149 Location: Canton, CT, USA	My 2 cents worth... Vindies - bump the speed up to 25cm to match Preds. I see no reason why they should be slower. I like Baduin's reasoning about weight being saved due to the lack of a turret and sponsons. Dreads - I have always thought they should have their own formation. I have no objections to being able to take them as upgrades, but they definitely need the capability to be field as separate formations. Weapon options would be nice also, like in the old days of AT. _________________ "I don't believe in destiny or the guiding hand of fate." N. Peart
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The_Real_Chris	Post subject: Marine Changes Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 5:15 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 4:45 pm Posts: 8139 Location: London	The dreads is a funny one. As it is they are only useful for an in your face drop pod or similar attack. Otherwise they slow a formation or simply provide a target for any AT only weapons being fired at them. The only way I'd take them is as a dedicated formation to go alongside my other drop troops so them being shot to bits wouldn't ruin the main attacking formations. Oh, and this is the first time I've heard it being against the background. What changed? Like the armour suggestion - however I don't know if it would be good for vindicator formations - to my knowledge only preds and land raiders have been tested with the discount. Oh, any chance of getting land raiders as an upgrade option for land raiders? (For company level action!) Librarians are harder to use effectively than chaplains. So in most situations chaplains are a better bet, you can't always engineer the best situation to use then as its an offensive action. Whereas a chaplain delivers bang for buck every time the formation assualts or is assualted. Something as minor as making the smite attack a ranged 15cm weapon as well as a small arms effect, maybe as AA as well, would be enough to give it a dimension outside a simple assualt and get it back in most peoples armies. Ass. marines have fallen out of favour in my force. They were always reguarded as a one shot weapon with low chances of survival. Now - especially with the revised hit allocation rule amendments - terminators have completely replaced them. They hit harder, have a ranged as well as cc attack, and are cheaper as a thunderhawk load out. For them to get back in the game for me the price would have to drop by 25 points and even then I'd still be heavily reliant on terminators for their MW attack. But at least 1 hawk would carry them. Of the ATSKNF options put forward I still reckon the leader amendment is the most fluffy, subtle boost increasing the amount of leaders in an army nicely. _________________ If using E-Bay use this link to support Tac Com! 'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' – Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913 "Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography." General Plumer, 191x
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The_Real_Chris	Post subject: Marine Changes Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 5:22 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 4:45 pm Posts: 8139 Location: London	Oh vehicle points drop. We started using them in landing craft before I left the UK, that really boost their performance. Are many others doing this as well? I still hold the marine list would be good split into two - 'drop' list (say Ultramarines codex) and 'planetside' list (say Imperial Fists codex). _________________ If using E-Bay use this link to support Tac Com! 'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' – Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913 "Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography." General Plumer, 191x
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nealhunt

Post subject: Marine Changes Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 7:00 pm

Purestrain Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm Posts: 9617 Location: Nashville, TN, USA

Oh, and this is the first time I've heard it being against the background. What changed? Nothing's changed.  According to the background, Dreads are relatively rare and reserved for only the greatest of the chapter's heroes.  Most don't have but a handful of them in the whole chapter.  That goes against the idea of dedicated formations of nothing but Dreads. Librarians are harder to use effectively than chaplains. So in most situations chaplains are a better bet, you can't always engineer the best situation to use then as its an offensive action. Whereas a chaplain delivers bang for buck every time the formation assualts or is assualted.

I think it's exactly the opposite.  Librarians are much easier to use and more versatile.

The Librarian has the same MWCC attack and a MWFF attack.  That means they always get their attack in an assault whether participating or supporting.  Chaplains only use their Inspiring when directly involved and can only use their MWCC when in CC.  When in support of an assault, a Chaplain gets exactly nothing.  

Chaplains - better when directly involved.
Librarians - easier to use ability.

I play a support-heavy game with marines rather than a combined-assault-heavy.  I typically use Librarians 2-3 times in a game.  Chaplains are usually once, twice if I'm lucky.

Something as minor as making the smite attack a ranged 15cm weapon as well as a small arms effect, maybe as AA as well, would be enough to give it a dimension outside a simple assualt and get it back in most peoples armies.

As far as getting Librarians into SM armies, I can tell you that in my marine armies I generally only have Chaplains in air-assault, teleport, or drop-pod formations and don't even consider taking them in anything else.  Every other character except the SC is a Librarian - bikes, speeders, armor, etc..

The same is true in my chaos marine armies.  Because the deep strike options are largely gone, I virtually always take Sorcerer Lords (CSM Librarians).

If Librarians were given a ranged 15cm MW attack, I would only take Chaplains in extremely specialized cases.  Basically, if I couldn't guarantee that a formation would definitely get into CC a Chaplain wouldn't even be considered.  Even then, if the formation would be slow I would probably consider it a better deal to take the Librarian.  The initial assault might be weaker, but the follow up use of a Chaplain later in the game would be small compared to a Librarian.