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Codex Marines - the big discussion

 Post subject: Re: Codex Marines - the big discussion
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 7:15 pm 
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Nice that someone would bring this up :)
I play and have been playing marines for some while and I think they are a very competitive army. I think the Space Marines real strength lies in mobility, TSKNF, airstrikes and high SR/initiative values. Activation supremacy is always an important facto and TSKNF helps a lot here.
The best builds always include at least one full thunderhawk, at least 10-12 activation's and a couple of scouts (or landspeeders).

The Codex marines is also one of the three lists that I think all armies should be compared and balanced against when we "make" new ones. The list is pretty solid all around and will do good against most opponents and builds.
If new lists is being made much better then the codex one then these lists need a nerf, the problem should not be solved by increasing the power of the codex marines. (That said I welcome changes even to the core lists as long as they are carefully thought through and the power level stays the same)

Perhaps it depend a lot on skill and what collections people have but at tournaments around here (Sweden) there are almost always a vanilla marine list or two at the top positions.

It would be interesting to know what armies people think is generally better then the marines and why?


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 Post subject: Re: Codex Marines - the big discussion
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 8:04 pm 
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Just wanted to add that I think the Codex list is one of the great successes of EA. It was the first time GW made marines play like they're described, and as far as I know they haven't done it since.


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 Post subject: Re: Codex Marines - the big discussion
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 8:38 pm 
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It's on p8 of the epic uk rules pack on the epic uk site. When I read it I assume it's an epic uk overide of the core rules and, at our club we tend to follow epic uk so if you say that at epic uk tourneys it isn't played like that, then it would be useful if that rules pack could be changed accordingly. Personally I think the scouts surrounding a unit should be able to screen it like they do for every other type of assault but happy to follow the epic uk word.


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 Post subject: Re: Codex Marines - the big discussion
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 8:51 pm 
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Marines have got to be my favorite army and unlike other armies their situational, as tactics can change during the game. The most important thing is off course keeping those terminator's as combat effective as possible but also keeping the rest of the army up and running.
The game I had against E&C orks on friday in which I took down his gargant, now normally I wouldn't go for big titans however it was isolated and it's position gave me cover after the engagement so I when't for it. My first set of termi's in a thawk came in and shot within surporting, then second set came in engaging doing 5 DC with no loss. After recycling in turn two I finished it off. :) BTW won the game turn 4, 3-1.

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 Post subject: Re: Codex Marines - the big discussion
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 9:04 pm 
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ffoley wrote:
It's on p8 of the epic uk rules pack on the epic uk site. When I read it I assume it's an epic uk overide of the core rules and, at our club we tend to follow epic uk so if you say that at epic uk tourneys it isn't played like that, then it would be useful if that rules pack could be changed accordingly. Personally I think the scouts surrounding a unit should be able to screen it like they do for every other type of assault but happy to follow the epic uk word.


okay I see what you're referring to, that is pretty clear cut and completely in disagreement with the FAQ as I read it, the reference is below (emphasis mine)
Quote:
2.1.12 Scout
Q: It’s possible to place a Scout unit just behind another friendly unit, so that the Scouts 10cm ZOC covers the friendly unit too. If this happens, can I charge the non-Scout unit? The rules say I can’t enter a ZOC unless I’m charging the unit it belongs to.

A: You are, of course, allowed to charge the unit! If an explanation is needed, then let’s say that the rule for moving into base contact with the enemy takes precedence over the rule for not entering another unit’s ZOC. However, any player who has attempted to use this tactic to stop a charge should hang their head in shame!


I have never personally played it any other way, both in friendly games (with seasoned EUK players) or at tournaments.... but as this is mostly a netEA discussion, this EUK ruling does not apply anyway :)

Also just to be clear I am not part of, nor do I speak for, EpicUK I am merely stating my own personal experiences from attending ~20 of their tournaments over the last 4 years

edit: thinking about this more, this actually makes both of the scenarios I posted above illegal as the EUK ruling applies specifically to aircraft, so it actually makes them weaker against scout screens than ground units....

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 Post subject: Re: Codex Marines - the big discussion
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 9:38 pm 
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Bear in mind that the FAQ is talking about screening from behind, and is meant to protect against specifically that. The crucial point is that the target unit is in front, and so you are allowed try to reach BtB through the shortest route - even if it takes you into another unit's ZoC. With aircraft I suppose you can say that cannot occur, as it does not move on the ground, it lands in place - thus it is entering both ZoCs simultaneously and there is no "front". So technically you could say the FAQ and the EUK tournament rules clarification are not in disagreement (at a stretch).

Personally if I had the choice I would play it such that your first photo is allowed but your second is not, for three reasons (any one of which would be enough by itself):
1. it is not necessary to land there, it could land on the other side
2. the sentinels and shadowsword are intermingled so there is a legal way to land there and you should use it
3. the thunderhawk is "coming from" the direction of the sentinels, which are therefore screening not from behind but from the front

EDIT: in retrospect, perhaps these posts should be cleaned up into a separate thread?

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 Post subject: Re: Codex Marines - the big discussion
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 9:53 pm 
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yeah thought this is space marine tread not rules discussion.

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 Post subject: Re: Codex Marines - the big discussion
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 9:57 pm 
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For what it's worth my thoughts on the main subject are that yes, codex marines are strong but if it has to always be about flying terminators and warhounds and rarely about the little guys in rhinos then I feel it isn't the great success of a list others claim it to be


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 Post subject: Re: Codex Marines - the big discussion
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 10:13 pm 
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I'd echo ffoley on this and on the rules clarification now needed (but will take that to another thread). I think codex marines are a very strong list (they're pretty much top of things I hate playing against list) but perhaps a bit monobuild at the highest level (ie it's hard to see a top tier list without double thunderhawk, double warhounds, and probably a strike cruiser). Tacticals seem more like an Oh well if I must stop my terminators being bts I'll take these option.

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 Post subject: Re: Codex Marines - the big discussion
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 11:20 pm 
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yeah sorry for derailing my own thread.... we've already been round the houses on the air assault/screen from behind thing in at least two separate threads and the rules committee have also discussed it at length and I *think* we were all on the same page?

*ahem* carry on ;D

FWIW I do agree that some choices are suboptimal in the list (vindicators, land raider formations, pred destructors, bikes and whirlwinds) however most lists have suboptimal choices that it is possible to use and win with, even if the most competetive builds have 3/4 of the same stuff in most of the time

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 Post subject: Re: Codex Marines - the big discussion
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 11:22 pm 
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StevekCole wrote:
Tacticals seem more like an Oh well if I must stop my terminators being bts I'll take these option.


I wonder how much of a tactical surprise a 4-tacticals SM army could be (and how effective as a stubborn block to shift they become)? Completely avoid Thunderhawks, ground-pound conventional marine forces, make the enemy waste their 300+ points on interception and AA and maximise the effective points advantage from that. Thoughts?


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 Post subject: Re: Codex Marines - the big discussion
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 11:40 pm 
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Doomkitten wrote:
StevekCole wrote:
Tacticals seem more like an Oh well if I must stop my terminators being bts I'll take these option.


I wonder how much of a tactical surprise a 4-tacticals SM army could be (and how effective as a stubborn block to shift they become)? Completely avoid Thunderhawks, ground-pound conventional marine forces, make the enemy waste their 300+ points on interception and AA and maximise the effective points advantage from that. Thoughts?

As someone who tends to play against marines far more than with them. I'd love to see an opponent turn up with 4 ground pounder tactical cos. You know exactly where they are so don't need to adapt to an off board threat. Prep and assault the key units and plink rhinos to slow up the others. Tactical cos are tough but won't stand up to either bigger stronger infantry units (eg a mech Co) or a powerful air assault (eg aspect warriors).

It would basically be like facing a way less scary version of thousand sons (no daemons, no fearless, no ra). Plus most armies have multi purpose aa which can prep, grab objectives, create crossfires, reduce rally rolls, etc so hardly wasted points.

Ps kyuss can you post a link to where the scout screen query is resolved (for us lazy folk).

Pps kyuss agree about most armies having 2/3 the same (at least) in top tier builds though my dream is anyways for all lists to have the variation that you see in steel legion builds where pretty much anything bar baneblades and large titans is a competitive option.

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 Post subject: Re: Codex Marines - the big discussion
PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2016 12:01 am 
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Steve, there are a couple of rules threads which iirc rapidly went in circles ;)

The rules committee was done via PM a year or two ago, will poke the others and see if we ever reached a consensus.....

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 Post subject: Re: Codex Marines - the big discussion
PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2016 1:52 am 
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I have played exclusively with Marines and Eldar for over 10 years, with mixed results to be sure (I am nowhere as successful as Steve or Dave :) ). I might add that apart from appalling dice, I am also know for my more 'unusual', even adventurous, lists . . .

I should also add that the following really relates to 3K games, which is the main meta for the vast majority of the players. Larger games allow more flexible strategies which in turn permits the use of less usual formations and combinations of units / upgrades.

In answer to the original question, IMO there has been a degree of power-creep in the more recent lists (eg discussions on Gorgons and other newer units), which in turn has caused a review of the original core lists over recent years. Does that mean that Marines (or Orks, IG and Eldar) are now underpowered? Probably not, though as others have noted, players are increasingly having to resort to optimal builds and tactics in order to achieve the same results.

As others have noted, Marines tend to function best with a significant air presence rather than a purely ground-pounding composition, because this gives the greatest flexibility which in turn allows the Marines to gain and retain the initiative. In the UK we also allow the Marine player to revise his transport options for each game, provided he has built this flexibility into the army.

High formation numbers also helps which in turn precludes very high cost formations like termies mounted in Land Raiders, while promoting the use of Land Speeders and Scouts. Terminators, Thawk(s), Tbolts, Scouts and WarHounds are pretty much staple choices. Tacticals with additional upgrades make a useful and robust BTS, though otherwise tend to be increasingly ineffective against newer units and formations.

Personally I prefer Bikes with a Chaplain over Assault Marines; 25 points extra give you one more unit with better stats. I also quite like Devastators with dreadnoughts which make a useful defensive force that can also be podded offensively with a spaceship (esp under uk rules). Equally Devastators mounted in four Razorbacks can make an interesting compromise over Predators. Finally I have been known to field Termies with Dreadnoughts in a Landing Craft for a really awesome assault - though at 850 for two formations, this only comes into its own in larger games.

To be fair, it is also very important to know the strengths and weaknesses of the opposing army, which is also becoming harder with the increasing number of lists. This is an important factor when using an air-assault list because by its very nature this puts a significant portion of the Marine formations in close proximity to the enemy. If the initial assaults fail to destroy their targets, the Marines usually find it very hard to win and are often forced to minimise the losses. I put some, though not all of the 'power-creep' down to ignorance of the opponents capabilities.

Finally I agree with the point about the player's temperament and perspectives. Some players have achieved considerable successes in the past with unusual army builds (eg multiple Whirlwinds). I suspect that this was because opponents had not faced the associated tactics, though IMO this highlights one of the strengths of E:A; the system does allow players to exercise a significant degree of imagination both in preparing their army and its associated strategic intentions, and also in reaction to the particular opposition and events on the battlefield.


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 Post subject: Re: Codex Marines - the big discussion
PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2016 2:09 am 
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FWIW Kyuss, in the many years of playing in UK tournaments, I have never known any Air assaults being allowed to land in the ZOC of other formations as you describe. AFAIK the FAQ in the UK pack was inserted to avoid the debate which raged over several years over the semantics of what was meant by "behind". However, as you say that is another debate best kept to a separate thread :) ::)


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