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Codex Marines - the big discussion

 Post subject: Re: Codex Marines - the big discussion
PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2016 5:49 pm 
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Steve54 wrote:
What would be a common amount of AA?


Elsaurio wrote:
Yes, but that might be because there is so much AA around. A few players have given up bringing any aircraft at all as there is so much flak!


Having just skimmed through the lists for castle assault and Cancon I would say the EUK and Australian metas have about equal flack. Quite a few of the Cancon lists are pretty low on flack/air, and a few have a lot, but overall it looks like what i'd think of as normal flack (accounting for different list/race flack availability on the way).

Haven't added it all up, but at an overview I don't see enough difference to think i'd nope out of marine air assaults as a general tactic, personally.

This lists, as linked by Elsaurio (cheers for adding the cancon lists link) in the DA thread are here: http://www.wargamerau.com/forum/index.p ... 5569&st=60
and here,
http://www.wargamerau.com/forum/index.p ... 2125&st=60 (middle of page)
if any experienced members of the eUK tournament group can comment.

Also, if there was too much flack, the meta should atuo-correct after a few events. If there is so much AA that people strop bringing planes, then at later events less AA should be fielded. AA is generally expensive or specialised role (with some race/list exceptions). Then more planes can be taken, then more flack might be taken, then fewer planes, etc … if there's so much AA people stop air assaulting, you can stop taking so much AA

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 Post subject: Re: Codex Marines - the big discussion
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 12:18 am 
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I'd just like to add an important bit of info to Apocolocyntosis post,

The link below has the wrap up and placings, 5 of the 6 codex lists were newcomers to the game, either first tournament and in some cases first games.


http://epicau.com/wp/cancon-2016-wrap-up/

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 Post subject: Re: Codex Marines - the big discussion
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 6:02 am 
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1. Tactical Det 500
Sup Comd
2 x Razorbacks
2 x Rhinos
Hunter

2. Terminator Det 400
Chaplain

3. Bike Det 250
Chaplain
1 x Attack Bike

4. Land Speeder Det 250
2 x Typhoon

5. Predator Det 250

6. Land Raider Det 325

7. Thunderhawk 200

8. Whirlwind Det 375
Hunter

9. Warhound Titan 275

10. Thunderbolt Sqn 175


Hey guys so this is my take on marines
I started with marines and found a mix bag of results through playing a bunch of games
I went to 2015 cancon with this list and came 9th losing to three Titan players and beating a CSM and two other marine players

The aim behind this list is to use the terminators preferably turn 2 to take out a target in their flanks or punish a mistake by the enemy then have the thunderhawk pick them up and reposition for turn three

The rest of the army usually worked in tandem to try to hold a flank eg bikes and speeders on the edge with preds raiders and tac moving up the middle and whirlwinds on the blitz

This allowed me to win most games through t&h and blitz

The tac and ww unit provided me with the aa coverage to support most things with tbolts on cap

My main issue with the marine list is that it's a jack of all trades master of none
For example the list was often out shot which saw my units reduced before they could be effective or meet combat against units that are more suited to the job eg wraith blades through air assault

It was hard to find a variety to build a list that wasn't dropping something for another terminator unit or the full on landing craft list. The reason I didn't go that way is that as those lists are usually all or nothing or can be beaten or rebuffed through scouts or even just poor bombardment and drop pod plotting


I don't think marines are woefully under powered I just think for them to be competitive there is not a lot of variety to the list builds which leads them to be boring to play plus there are so many more armies out their now that can do what marines can do just better.

I love my marines and would jump at the chance to participate in any tweaks people would like to try
Eg make vindicators a thing by making them disrupt and start at 5 or allow preds to upgrade their numbers


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 Post subject: Re: Codex Marines - the big discussion
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 8:40 am 
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Well, i think that marines have one of the best alpha strike lists in te game. And their air assaulting terminators is one of thhe most lethla assault formations out there.

If you play marines the way Steve explained it they are very very competitive and will be hard for any player to deal with. If peope use them in other ways they might preform worse...

Really interesting and good thread! I've learned a few more things from this and will now get my 3rd SM army to play with (bought and sold 2 before without using them...)

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 Post subject: Re: Codex Marines - the big discussion
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 9:57 am 
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But doesn't that mean the list needs some tweaks
If the list only performs one way it becomes very stale and boring

I know there are other marine lists eg IF SW etc
But shouldn't the standard vanilla marines have more options of builds rather than this particular one? The chapter specific lists I think are fine to have the singular theme builds as that's what they are made for


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 Post subject: Re: Codex Marines - the big discussion
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 10:03 am 
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The focus of this discussion was more why air assault/teleport SM lists aren't viewed as a viable tactic in some playgroups

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 Post subject: Re: Codex Marines - the big discussion
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 10:28 am 
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Steve54 wrote:
The focus of this discussion was more why air assault/teleport SM lists aren't viewed as a viable tactic in Australia.


That is not exactly what the question is asking in the first post.


But regardless, knowing that your playing a drop pod Marine list/ backed up by Thunderhawks for air assault you can take precautions and be prepared for when the marines drop.

Smart objective placing, scout screening, good positioning, overlaping AA bubbles and overwatch go a long way in rebuffing marines. Sure you may not shoot down the Thunderhawks, but adding that blast marker onto the formation assaulting you goes a long way.
Hiding your AA behind cover makes it quite a challenge for the Warhounds and drop podding devestators to take out. Especially if AA is in mixed formations of AV.
Overwatch will also go a long way to dealing with those threats. Single Warhounds being DC3 are also pretty easy to break for some armies.


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 Post subject: Re: Codex Marines - the big discussion
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 10:30 am 
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Well as part of a general discussion about the power of the SM list.

I'm not convinced this is really about Australia. My regular opponent doesn't use the forums but I think he would say the list is underpowered. However I disagree, though I can see there are reasons he would think that. He almost exclusively plays marines, and almost every time we play I win. Yet when I go to tournaments I am far from achieving that record ;) IMO the reason is because of the differing perspectives we have during the game. When you are playing as marines, it often looks like you are losing when in actual fact you are on course to win. Yet if you think you are losing, you tend to make decisions differently or carelessly which can lead you to actually lose. He tends to think he is losing because he doesn't have the numbers to destroy my eldar formations, but he forgets that you only need one land speeder to contest or claim an objective. In Epic, your haven't lost until you have lost. This is important for marines because they have great staying power, cannot be broken in turn 3/4 by single formations plinking, are generally fast, activate and rally with greater reliability and have annoying tricks like thunderhawks landing to contest.

So my theory goes like this: new players take SM, and they even try some great builds like the air assault varieties. But they are new and marines are nuanced, so they lose a lot. Then they become negative about the army, and lose more. Eventually they give up on the army and play something else. With a fresh outlook and more experience, they do better with their new army, and therefore conclude it is a more powerful list.

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 Post subject: Re: Codex Marines - the big discussion
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 10:41 am 
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I agree with you to a point about how new players can create negative opinions after losing lots since they are new

But I know for myself I have gone back to my marines several times tried different builds with tactics and skills I have learnt as I've gained more experience and always come back to feeling like the all you can eat buffet us run out of food and I'm still hungry

As I said before I don't think marines are bad but being one of the longest standing lists they were the bench mark for all other lists being developed. But over time other lists have pushed ahead of them and they now struggle in situations where other lists can do it better
Eg you want a surgical strike iyanden can do what marines can do but better


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 Post subject: Re: Codex Marines - the big discussion
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 12:55 pm 
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Mard is right in that this is a potentially broad discussion about the overall power of the codex list as viewed from differing perspectives, I think it's also important to note that there is no one single 'Australian' metagame, just as there isn't a single 'US' or 'Swedish' metagame, I recall that Onyx was one of the voices calling to keep the codex list as it is back when discussions happened previously, and as he's pretty prolific within his scene, I'd conclude that the codex does well in the WA scene (please correct me if I'm wrong!)

as a bit of a counterpoint to Elsaurio's primer for protecting against the codex list, I was inspired to write one from the perspective of the marine player trying to 'counter the counter' as much of what he said is valid and forms a fairly standard part of the overall 'marine defence' play in the UK scene

1. Take a spaceship and learn to use it!

this is one of the single most important pointers I've picked up over the past few years, the two pie-plates can have a massive effect on your opponent's deployment, most of the UK tables tend to have 2-3 pieces of terrain either inside, or next to the deployment zone, these are great places to hide artillery and AA formations, if your opponent tries to double bluff and place them elsewhere, you can position units like warhounds and predators to deal with them

Aside from the orbital barrage, drop-podding devs provide a very strong alpha strike proposition, they add more blast markers from the deathwind to units already hit by the barrage, then the devs inside get to shoot, which means you can often break warhounds/shadowswords with blast markers alone. There could be entire articles written about the best usage of spaceships and barrages, but since including them in my lists, I've started winning more games!

The other big upshot is that your opponent now has to commit resources to dealing with the devs in his deployment zone, which means they're using up more activations reacting to you

oh and it also opens the option to planetfall, nuff said!

2. You don't always have to go first!

sure that beefy SR5 is handy in turns 2+3 when you need those crucial assaults to come off, but never shy away from passing the initiative to your opponent if it will increase your activation advantage, this is particularly true of armies like AMTL who often only have 6-7 formations in total

3. The fewer targets you give your opponent, the better!

if you plonk down a couple of units of scouts, bikes or speeders and keep the rest in thunderhawks, landing craft and drop pods, you can let your opponent go first knowing your valuable units are safe, it also plays into forcing them into a reactive playstyle and shooting at stuff they would rather be ignoring

4. When in doubt, HIDE!

marines are big tough dudes, but it's usually a good idea to keep them hidden where possible, keep them close to vehicles for the cover and force your opponent to come towards you and spread out

5. Spread those objectives!

if you spread your objectives to the edges of the table, your opponent will struggle to bring his forces to bear to defend them effectively and you can pick him apart

6. be patient!

while you can often see a juicy BTS target for your terminators to knock out turn 1, it may be worth waiting until later in the game when you can better prep and support them and reduce the risk, always try to keep your terminator airstrike until the last activation of the turn when hopefully your opponent can't react, if there are no low-risk formations, don't feel you HAVE to use the terminators, thunderhawks have 75cm battlecannons after all, plink the AA from a safe distance, snipe to break units teetering on the edge of breaking, or pick off units in broken formations, it all helps!

7. Unless the opponent has nightwings, don't teleport!

teleporting terminators is generally a less effective way to bring them in, they are vulnerable to losing the strategy roll off (especially against armies like Eldar and Chaos) when they can be clipped or simply avoided, they are also reasonably likely to be coming in with blast markers, and due to the aforementioned strategy roll vulnerability they usually need to activate at the start of the turn, are unable to bypass scout screens, and can't barge skimming transports out of the way

The thunderhawk is the premier air-assault transport in the game, yes sometimes you lose one to a lucky hydra shot, but generally they will fly through quite a bit of flak, they can hit anywhere on the table, can barge skimmer screens out of the way, and most importantly cannot be stopped by scout screens thanks to the 'screen from behind' FAQ ruling

8. Protect your terminators!

if you throw them in against an opponent early and lose them to reprisal attacks, you are giving away one of your biggest assets, not to mention probably two activations if you include the thunderhawk, unless you've built your list a certain way, don't view them as disposable unless you're chucking them in against a tough BTS having already got a 2-0 win in the bag ;)

9. Bring lots of activations!

scouts and land speeders are cheap enough to be fielded in numbers, but unlike many other armies cheap choices, they are far from useless, they are scouts which is pretty essential anyway, but scouts are reasonably handy in a scrap, and speeders are super fast for nabbing objectives, they also allow you to stall effectively, by moving scouts from cover to cover, ground attacking with planes and letting the opponent move first, you can quite easily gain the advantage, especially when your devs and spaceship have done their job and taken out an activation or two, just make sure that you keep the rhinos alive to maintain your speed in the late game

10. Remember the objectives!

Last but not least, is to remember that epic is a game of maneuver as much as it is about killing stuff, a single speeder, bike or scout stand can capture or contest an objective as easily as a warlord titan can, while tabling your opponent is satisfying when it happens, you can take a hammering and still win the game provided you keep the objectives in mind! don't get drawn into firefights with steel legion, don't take tyranids on in assaults, play to your strengths, which are the surgical strike and your mobility, fight the battles you can win, avoid the ones you can't

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 Post subject: Codex Marines - the big discussion
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 6:32 pm 
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Kyrt wrote:

So my theory goes like this: new players take SM, and they even try some great builds like the air assault varieties. But they are new and marines are nuanced, so they lose a lot. Then they become negative about the army, and lose more. Eventually they give up on the army and play something else. With a fresh outlook and more experience, they do better with their new army, and therefore conclude it is a more powerful list.

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This is exactly the journey I have been on with marines. First few months they seemed completely op with thunderhawks smashing all your best toys on turn 1. Then, once we learnt to defend against they became unplayable and we thought they were underpowered. However after watching some of the best in the tourney scene here hand me my ass I went back and looked at them again. now they are my go to army locally, and I feel like I don't look too silly in tourneys with them (others may disagree :-) ).

Interesting discussion.


Last edited by Blip on Sat Apr 09, 2016 6:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Codex Marines - the big discussion
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 6:41 pm 
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Not wanting to go off topic but the epic UK tourny FAQ specifically says scout screen zoc is effective against air assault. Surely that trumps the scout from behind rule at least in epic UK tournies?


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 Post subject: Re: Codex Marines - the big discussion
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 6:50 pm 
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Can you point me at this document? I'm being dense and can't see it....

I have never played it like that at a tournament, in a nutshell the GW FAQ states that you can enter multiple ZoC to engage a formation, and while it can be fiddy as all hell, it's definitely within the rules to do so as I understand them....

I will take some pics shortly to illustrate it in real terms as a picture is worth a thousand words ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Codex Marines - the big discussion
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 7:07 pm 
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I might have some pictures knocking about from a previous discussion but actually the screen from behind phenomenon (which is about exactly that - non-intermingled scouts behind the target whose zoc extends in front of the target) is only part of the issue. It's easy to stop teleporting terminators targeting a formation on your blitz by garrisoning some scouts ahead of them. So long as the zocs overlap the terminators then have to teleport way out and can't walk past the scouts zoc. Whereas thunderhawks can land behind the scouts.

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 Post subject: Re: Codex Marines - the big discussion
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 7:12 pm 
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Photo A, thunderhawk wants to assault the shadowsword, GW FAQ explicitly states this is okay and you can enter sentinel ZoC as well as the target's

Image

Photo B, this situation is functionally no different to photo A except the location of the thunderhawk, there is no reason B is not permissable if A is also legal:

Image

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