Tactical Command
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NetEA White Scars Trial Discussion
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=73&t=30646		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  jimmyzimms [ Thu Dec 17, 2015 4:20 pm ]
Post subject:  NetEA White Scars Trial Discussion
OK folks Dave's recently started a conversation with me about the White Scars list. For those of you unfamiliar with it the current list is here.

I'm open to entertaining the following changes to this list (and a small amount of rational for each). Wider changes I am less inclined to consider (though feel free to write them for cogitation) at this time but will for a future date. I'd like to make the smallest changes handling the most egregious issues at this time and then sit back and see the results and iterate.

1. Allow Tactical Formation to take the Hunter upgrade
(this is pretty much an oversight and there's no fluff reasons why it's not there)
2. Allow Terminiator Formation to take the Hunter upgrade
(ditto)
3. Add a Vindicator formation to the list
(The origins of the lack of Vindi in the GW original list is due to the fact it is a slowpoke vehicle at 20cm. This doesn't quite fit the the zippy nature of the army. There's been an idea hearkening back to old IA articles where the WS would drop weapons and armour from tanks to gain speed. With that theme in mind how about losing walker aka the Dozer but gain 5cm speed?)

Adding completely new units, especially ones that there are no models for are less likely to be listened to. In short: Everyone has a Vindicator formation somewhere. Land Speeder Storms? Not so much...

OK we're going to run this for a while to allow some actual thinking and discussion to occur here. Feel free to select any and all options you would like to trial. Theory-hammer below.

When the results are in I'll come back with the next steps.
Author:  Dave [ Thu Dec 17, 2015 8:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: NetEA White Scars Trial Discussion
I'd also be willing to give up the Vindicator upgrade on Whirlwinds (still trying to figure that one out) to get them on Assault, Tactical and/or Terminator formations (where they might get taken).
Author:  jimmyzimms [ Thu Dec 17, 2015 8:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: NetEA White Scars Trial Discussion
I was thinking today around 5AM about what they were thinking there. I suppose they were conceptually trying it for a a constantly moving formation with some CQB support. They never stop and sustain; always moving forward. Doesn't really translate in the EA mechanics (unless we had that Stable Platform special idea from Oynx [hint hint]) well (or at all).
Author:  GlynG [ Fri Dec 18, 2015 11:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: NetEA White Scars Trial Discussion
Good to see these changes being made :) I definitely support the Vindicator losing the dozer blade and being move 30cm - much more fitting for the White Scars and their focus on speed.

The big problem with the current list though is it actually represents the core WS Bikers really badly. The WS background for their Biker formations has them fighting with hit and run tactics, often feigning flight and then reforming. The current 8 strong WS Biker formation goes the opposite way and is a lot less likely to flee than the standard Biker formation in other lists, which is unfortunate and inappropriate. I’d like to see the WS Biker formation changed to be 5 strong (heck maybe even 4 strong!) as a simple change to make them match their background. Some kind of special rule could be added to represent it instead but just changing the formation size fixes it without needing to and better to keep it simple.

Also, according to the old Chapter Approved article on the White Scars they normally field their Predator tanks without sponsons, so that they are faster. It’s a lot less important a change (and may not be mentioned in more recent background, I'm not sure) but I’d consider representing this in the Epic list. Note their FF would need to drop accordingly.
Author:  jimmyzimms [ Fri Dec 18, 2015 1:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: NetEA White Scars Trial Discussion
Yeah that's conceptually where the stripped down version of the vindis idea comes from. The boost would be +5cm however (basically the inverse of the defacto cost associated to adding dozers to an AV from SGs Fighting in Jungles (which incidentally I should hit rug up about pushing over the finish line...). This makes then synergize well with Land Raiders as a hard hitting 1...2 combination.

I've often thought about WS perhaps being better represented by something akin to the Eldar consolidation move myself.
Author:  carlisimo109 [ Sun Jan 10, 2016 1:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: NetEA White Scars Trial Discussion
4-8 stand biker formations then?

The problem with sponson-less Predators is that they're basically Razorbacks without transport capacity. The Annihilator would even have the same weapon. I don't object to adding them, I just wonder if anyone would care. I'd rather take Land Speeders if it's for the speed.
Author:  jimmyzimms [ Thu Jan 14, 2016 1:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: NetEA White Scars Trial Discussion
OK looks like the results are in and it's pretty clear that Hunters for Tactical as well as Terminiators is well liked. Close but not as liked is the idea of a stripped down Vindicator. My belief is that adding the hunter upgrades to the list and bring it before the ERC Synod for blessing is step one. Based on that (which I suspect this isn't going to be a deal), we can then trial and batrep the inclusion of the Vindi for review as step 2 with a review of 6 games.

If anyone has something to say about this approach bring it up.

There's some good stuff to chew on in the general wishlisting and thinking in the the posts above. Great input everyone.
Author:  Dave [ Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: NetEA White Scars Trial Discussion
Hunter was added to the Tactical and Terminator formation, and the TP has been updated:

http://www.tp.net-armageddon.org/army-l ... scars.html
Author:  jimmyzimms [ Thu Jan 21, 2016 3:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: NetEA White Scars Trial Discussion
HUZZAH!!!

Thanks Dave and the rest of everyone!
Author:  Sayrewolf [ Thu Jan 21, 2016 11:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: NetEA White Scars Trial Discussion
GlynG wrote:
The big problem with the current list though is it actually represents the core WS Bikers really badly. The WS background for their Biker formations has them fighting with hit and run tactics, often feigning flight and then reforming. The current 8 strong WS Biker formation goes the opposite way and is a lot less likely to flee than the standard Biker formation in other lists, which is unfortunate and inappropriate. I’d like to see the WS Biker formation changed to be 5 strong (heck maybe even 4 strong!) as a simple change to make them match their background. Some kind of special rule could be added to represent it instead but just changing the formation size fixes it without needing to and better to keep it simple..


I had a massively eloquent and incredibly persuasive post ready to go on this issue in December but I deleted it by accident and couldn't face retyping it all so I'll just post the meat of it.

Why not give the White Scar biker formations a rule like the eldar have hit and run wise? I'd be tempted to include all the faster units in that concept (including desponsoned predators, which would mark them out from Razorbacks in ponderous infantry formations) but I suppose I'd be worried about macro weapon spam from landspeeders. Essentially 5x MW5+ shots with 55cm(ish) range from behind cover does seem a bit OP. It really gets to the core of the the whole Mongol horse archers in space, death by a thousand cuts vibe they are going for though and added bonus, makes formations of nothing but attack bikes viable as pre-assault infantry harassment units.

Another interesting idea would be a, let's say, 0-1 per formation multi-melta attack bike upgrade. I for one would like to use the multitudinous MM sidecars I have as what they are rather than counts as heavy bolters (yuck)
Author:  jimmyzimms [ Thu Jan 21, 2016 11:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: NetEA White Scars Trial Discussion
i have a feeling you are I are closer to on this than apart, esp: regarding the Eldar H&R mechanics
Author:  Kyrt [ Tue Mar 15, 2016 8:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: NetEA White Scars Trial Discussion
Doh: posted in wrong thread
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