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Predators 4 with +0-2. Messing with people's collections isn't going to buy you any friends.

Land Speeder Storm fits in other more specialized lists where Codex one doesn't need to be butting in. (I happen to have one of those admittedly but I'd feel the same irrespective).

I'm with Kyuss where this should be an alternate Codex list if we're sticking in too many new toys. Playing with a few upgrades and maybe one new unit, I'm ok with it but uncomfortable. But a rose by any other name...

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I have to say to the folks feeling unsure about the Storm and LRC to try it first before shit-canning it. If it's broke we'll fix it but we won't know till we try.

Just to be clear, it's two new units. Two. There was more stuff people have been asking for that would have far more impact on the list.

TBH I'm not sure I went far enough with any of the changes I'm proposing or if they will make much difference to the list strength. I've still yet to win a game versus any IG list ever.... yes, never won one with any SM list.... Lost my 6th in a row this the year. I just can't beat them.

I might have to start playing Eldar.

Do we get a discount if we only take four Predators? Turrets from Shapeways make it easier than before to get a fifth... I just can't get the side sponsons to stay on.

With scouts I don't mind losing the "plus transport" option; I'm happy garrisoning them. I don't think I'm capable of making anything that looks like a Land Speeder Storm so that's not happening. Maybe we can lobby Deacon to make one for the Sisterhood.

It's only a trial list so I wouldn't go getting new miniatures made up, just proxy for now.

I get that, but this is a BIG precedent to be setting (if it goes ahead) as it may open the door for the other 'core' lists to start adding units, I'm just wary of taking a well balanced and flavourful list and diluting it with too many new toys



I'm not trying to be disparaging here at all, nor am I trying to patronise or cause offence, but maybe it's just that your playstyle doesn't suit marines? when I've played guard against marines I find them particularly difficult to deal with, they have the ability to pick where they engage, almost always go first, and you're often struggling to react effectively thanks to int2+.... I've also beaten guard quite a few times with marines myself... the only list I've struggled against has been Krieg, and they are a bit overpowered....

I've seen good marine players take all kinds of armies apart, watching dptdexys utterly destroy a plasma-heavy AMTL force was a joy to behold (even though it was my titans getting the kicking) Steve54 gave my armour heavy IF list a proper shoeing with his codex marines, and Mark P has stomped all over my guard on multiple occasions....



that's crazy talk!

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Conversly I find guard very hard to use vs marines - especially leman russ formations which just seem too slow to do anything useful. The Terminators popping up in the rear, thunderhawk contents slaughtering my units in close combat and warhounds skipping around with strat 5 I only really deal with if I go very numbers heavy!

Understood. Me too. This is why I set this as a trial list and didn't introduce some of these in the amendments I made. I need to assess them a lot more than the 3 changes I just put through and these ones may not even get in at the end.

Just know that I'm not doing this just for myself as I've had a lot of players asking me for this or that so I owe it to others to at least try something new. Who knows? All of these may not even make it in. From the amount of fairly positive remarks so far though it sounds like some folks are keen.


I know, it won't matter with me anyway

Your dice will turn traitor on you regardless of army. I know this from experience

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Try counting "1"s to see who wins on that score - its a very good way of taking the sting out of repeated defeats caused by the dice; then you really *can* blame the dice.
It works for me anyway

5 Predator formations: Very much like this. 5 Predators feel about the same effectivness as a Warhound so should acomplish making them a workable alternate for Warhounds. "Breaking" peoples existing collections should have no impact on this decision

Scout Land Speeder transport: I really like this, mainly as it's actually a bit of a downgrade for scouts (in the best possible way). One of the Scout formations best points was it's cheap cost, and upping the cost with these helps to reduce some of that issue.

Crusader: Cool, go for it.

Warhound: I'd keep the singleton at 275. They're deffinetly worth at least that much.

Vindicator change: adding Disrupt rather than changing to MW is a much better change, and would even be easier to trickle down to other lists using teh same gun.

All in all, I like these changes.

Totally agree Mike, though having a base of 4 and allowing 0-2 upgrades achieves the same thing

I can easily set it this way if the majority would prefer a 1-2 upgrade. I went easier on the numbers originally (figured land Speeders are in 5s too) for both balance and cost reasons, but if people feel 6 Preds isn't OTT then I can bow to their wishes. What should they be priced at +50 each @ 1-2? The issue then is the fm becomes either 250+50 +50 which reduces the effect of the 275 WH replacement cost.

My opinion on these changes:

Predator formation: I like even numbers here. 4 + 0-2 at 50 points each is the way to go.

Warhound singleton 0-1: Against, with other options getting better it should remain without a numbers max. Price it at 300 instead.

Vindicator: very OK, like it.

Land Raider Crusader: Yes, go for it!

Land Speeder Storm: Nice, but not a must-have.

Spacecraft transport: Hmm, not sure that dreads should boosted this way.

Thanks Koshi.

A couple of questions:

I'm just curious to know why even numbers are better? If you can put 6 on the board, a 5-unit formation is possible plus you can put a Hunter in it and still put it on a Landing Craft if you want.

Warhound - would you still take two @ 300 points each? I think people would, so there's still the same issue of reliance on them.