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The NetEA Codex list. How do you feel about it? A few Qs

 Post subject: The NetEA Codex list. How do you feel about it? A few Qs
PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 6:46 am 
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I'm curious to know how people feel about the old workhorse. How do other players fare with it these days?

I notice that even in the EUK tournaments for 2014 the EUK version seems to occasionally still place in the top two to four places, but usually when played by the three or four top players going around the EUK traps. Interestingly, those players seem to place in the top 3 or so using any list they put their hands on (top marks gents!). So then it would seem that top players will win regardless of list, but what about the rest of us, and what about the NetEA Codex list?

Should there be any changes?
Can there be any changes?
What sort of changes are necessary, if any?
How do you see the newer lists NetEA is producing compared to the Codex list in say power and ability?

Cheers all.


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 Post subject: Re: The NetEA Codex list. How do you feel about it? A few Qs
PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 7:25 am 
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I know it's a biiiig change, but i still would like to see Warhounds in pairs only.

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 Post subject: Re: The NetEA Codex list. How do you feel about it? A few Qs
PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 8:13 am 
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Why would you want that?


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 Post subject: Re: The NetEA Codex list. How do you feel about it? A few Qs
PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 9:32 am 
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It's an excellent, well balanced list that myself and others use a lot. You've done well.

No major changes needed or warranted. There are a few minor changes I would very much like to see though:

Can we please reduce the cost of the horrendously overpriced Land Speeder Typhoon? When discussed and polled before this had a considerable majority of support and you seemed to agree Dobbsy but haven't changed it as yet. It should cost 10 or 15 points not 25. Epic-UK have the Typhoon (with identical stats) and cost the upgrade at 10.

Scout Snipers – rather than upgrading one stand for a pricey +25 upgrade (that no-one ever takes) please lets change it to upgrade the whole formation for +50 points. This is how Epic-UK have it and how it is in some of the sub-lists (Salamanders, Scions of Iron, ect) so it's well tested and balanced.

Warhounds – I'd like to see these either go up to 300 for a single Warhound (500 as normal for a pair) OR make the single Warhound 0-1. This would cut back a bit on the overall power of the list and reinforce the SM element rather than their most popular allies. The Net-EA SM list is overall slightly more powerful than the Epic-UK SM list overall (thought it varies depending on what sort of an army you take) and IMO it could ideally do with a slight nerf (either of these is my best suggestion) to make the overall power level more equal.

Dobbsy wrote:
How do you see the newer lists NetEA is producing compared to the Codex list in say power and ability?

I believe some of the SM variant lists (Blood Angels, Darks Angels and Space Wolves) are a bit overpowered compared to the codex list and other lists, but that's their problem not the codex lists.


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 Post subject: Re: The NetEA Codex list. How do you feel about it? A few Qs
PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 12:11 pm 
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It'd be nice if it didn't rely on warhounds so much (not to bothered if it's ones or twos.) Not sure how you do that though as we find the list tricky enough with them.

Just spit balling - Perhaps some of the newer SM gunships could for fill that, hard hitting, mobile, engagement triggers, without meaning SMs always bring their wolfy friends by default...?


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 Post subject: Re: The NetEA Codex list. How do you feel about it? A few Qs
PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 1:29 pm 
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@ringo wrote:
Why would you want that?


Because now they're almost auto-include in every list. They are too good for their price IMO. And the fluff suggests they operate in pairs...

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 Post subject: Re: The NetEA Codex list. How do you feel about it? A few Qs
PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 1:37 pm 
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I'd still buy warhounds at 300 points, I'd probably still take them at 350 if I'm honest..... which for me highlights the futility of trying to balance a list through points alone....

on topic, I'd say the codex list as it is currently is pretty solid, plenty of options to play air-assault but also to operate as ground pounders, I'd like to see some of the newer units which are now freely available to all chapters (LR crusaders in particular) but I'm of the opinion that we shouldn't fiddle with a winning team apart from minor points tweaks, I think vindicators are overcosted for their effectiveness and generally the upgrades are too expensive and could do with a price break as I've done with the imperial fists (vindicators @50 points or 75 for two, land raiders @75 or 125 for two)

Going forward if we want to align more closely with GW fluff for generic codex space marines, I'd suggest an 'ultramarines' list which gets more access to all the toys perhaps at the expense of warhounds, making them much more representative of how current marine armies are expected to fight

In terms of relative power to the NetEA lists I think we're at similar levels to most of the other approved lists (whitescars, scions, salamanders) but I think we're pushing it with others (Dark Angels specifically) which is not neccessarily a bad thing, but it most definitely is a thing....

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 Post subject: Re: The NetEA Codex list. How do you feel about it? A few Qs
PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 3:17 pm 
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I too would love it if marines could be fielded without warhounds. The addition of fearless, fast, shooting (esp. MW) platforms is impossible to resist however...

You could replace the IMperial fliers with Marines options (but their fighter should be pants, because, well, look at it...), but hardly essential (of course if GW were doing it today they would).

I have gotten use to the EpicUK list, making some of the stuff in the NetEA a surprise.

Make the formation list is alphabetical :)

(I prefer the cheaper NetEA tacs.)

I would like devs to be able to get Vindicators.

I would like it if the pred formation moved to be 4 pred destructors for 225, +25 to make them all annihilators.

I would like Vindicators to be able to take the vindicators upgrade.

I think the 0-1 Strike cruiser with an upgrade to be a battle barge is clearer.

Scout sniper upgrade should be 50 points to make all of them snipers.

Make the typhoon upgrade 10 each/25 for 2/50 for all (one of those choices...)

And increase the single Warhound formation cost to 300 to make up for some of the price breaks above and see if people will move to using less...

Write Hellfire and tactical dreds as seperate lines on summary sheet...

Unit changes
Attack bike FF to 4+

Surprised the Destructors FF is 3+, seems wrong to have it higher than a landraider, would make it 4+ and 225 for formation.

Give the warhound the crit that makes it lose a point of damage...

I think the EpicUK special rules are laid out more clearly and the addition of superior tactics a good one (included at the bottom of the post).

Quote:
SPACE MARINE TRANSPORT
The Space Marines are a highly mobile army. Because of this, the points cost of a detachment usually
includes enough Rhino transport vehicles to transport it and any upgrades that have been taken. The
number of Rhinos will always be the minimum needed to carry the formation; you can’t take extras along to
cover any losses!
To work out a formation’s transport
• Add any infantry upgrades to the formation.
• Add Land Raiders to the formation.
• Add Razorbacks to the formation, up to the number of Infantry units not transportable by Land Raiders.
• If there are still infantry units in the formation without transport add the minimum number of Rhinos
required for all units in the formation to be transported.
Note that many formations don’t receive Rhinos, usually because they can’t fit into them. Detachments that
come with Rhinos will be noted as having ‘plus transport’ in the units section of the army list.
Also note that you don’t have to take Rhinos if you don’t want to. If you’d rather field the formation on foot
instead, so it can act as a garrison for example, or be transported in a Thunderhawk Gunship, then you may
do so.
In addition, you may choose to replace a detachment’s Rhinos with Drop Pods. If you do this then the
detachment will enter play in a Drop Pod using the rules for planetfall (see the EPIC Armageddon Rulebook,
section 4.4). Note that if you choose to do this you will also require at least one Space Marine Strike Cruiser
or Battle Barge to deploy the Drop Pods from.
SUPERIOR TACTICS
All Space Marine armies are highly flexible and tactical. Before each tournament game the Space Marine
player may choose which formations with the ‘plus transport’ aspect are deployed in Rhinos, Drop Pods or
on foot. If the formation has any units unable to deploy in Drop Pods then that option cannot be selected.
THEY SHALL KNOW NO FEAR
Space Marines are renowned for their tenacity and bravery. This is represented by the following rules:
• It takes two blast markers to suppress a Space Marine unit or kill a unit in a broken formation (ignore any
leftover blast markers).
Space Marine formations are only broken when they have two blast markers per unit in the formation.
• Space Marine formations count as having half their number of blast markers in assault resolution
(rounding down to a minimum of one blast marker).
• Halve the number of hits suffered by a Space Marine formation that loses an assault, rounding down in
favour of the Space Marines.
• When a broken Space Marine formation rallies it receives a number of blast markers equal to the number
of units remaining in the formation, rather than half this number.
• Space Marine units with the Leader special ability remove two blast markers instead of one.


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 Post subject: Re: The NetEA Codex list. How do you feel about it? A few Qs
PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 4:08 pm 
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If the entirety of the Imperial factions uniformly set the Warhound singleton increase I'd get behind that. Otherwise you're simply taking codex and turning it on hard mode against armies like Steel Legion.

I lament that while you can play successfully the list without them, due to the way the rules and units work it's a no-brainer generally. The idea of an Ultramarines list is interesting but way down the road in importance to me. I don't see how they'd be different in practice from the SoI list (or was it the Apocrypha list that's the marine tank one???)

The +transport from EpicUK is good. We play that locally though we use NetEA lists. I'd like to see it adopted simply for theme.

I like Glyng comments about typhoon and sniper. They're pretty spot on.

I think dropping FF on predator destructors would make them even more absent. The differences with Land Raiders is basically due to one chassis not being a honking huge tank that is easier to maneuver in an assault. Sadly I feel that Land Raiders are useful but more about the fact that AT is more valuable in lists than them really living up to their reputation. It's really a problem with with Heavy tanks not being well represented in the rules.

I'd like to see some non balance vs true to theme list issues in the marines codex list get closed. It's eye rolling that I can take an army of scouts and a war engines. I also get that the representation of an army doesn't mean it's from a single chapter so weird builds can be hand waved away and any annoyance is my own issues at the heart of it.

All in all, I'd really not suggest playing with this list. It's stable and fun even with a few wonky parts of things you can do.

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 Post subject: Re: The NetEA Codex list. How do you feel about it? A few Qs
PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 4:41 pm 
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jimmyzimms wrote:
If the entirety of the Imperial factions uniformly set the Warhound singleton increase I'd get behind that. Otherwise you're simply taking codex and turning it on hard mode against armies like Steel Legion.


Marines are strat 5, guard strat 2. Marine warhounds go first 8/9's of the time, and 3/4 of the time if they went first ont he turn before..
I have no problems with marines paying more...


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 Post subject: Re: The NetEA Codex list. How do you feel about it? A few Qs
PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 4:52 pm 
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Does anyone see list creep in other lists being a problem for the Marines in general? A couple of folks have already spoken to me directly about the prevalence for new lists to include a lot of RA and MW these days - part of the reason I thought I'd ask how others felt.


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 Post subject: Re: The NetEA Codex list. How do you feel about it? A few Qs
PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 4:55 pm 
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The_Real_Chris wrote:
jimmyzimms wrote:
If the entirety of the Imperial factions uniformly set the Warhound singleton increase I'd get behind that. Otherwise you're simply taking codex and turning it on hard mode against armies like Steel Legion.


Marines are strat 5, guard strat 2. Marine warhounds go first 8/9's of the time, and 3/4 of the time if they went first ont he turn before..
I have no problems with marines paying more...


Marines already pay more for tbolts so its not without precedence....

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 Post subject: Re: The NetEA Codex list. How do you feel about it? A few Qs
PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 4:59 pm 
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Aye and I'll take a mech company + Warhound combo over just about anything in the Imperial roster. 21 supporting shots FTW

Note: I said increase, not equal to each other.

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 Post subject: Re: The NetEA Codex list. How do you feel about it? A few Qs
PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 5:00 pm 
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Dobbsy wrote:
Does anyone see list creep in other lists being a problem for the Marines in general? A couple of folks have already spoken to me directly about the prevalence for new lists to include a lot of RA and MW these days - part of the reason I thought I'd ask how others felt.


I think with their strengths, when played well marines can handle most foes, however in my experience it's actually very difficult to play marines well

I think the increased inclusion of MW and RA in newer lists is a problem in a much broader sense, and doesn't just affect marines but that's an argument discussion for another day....

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 Post subject: Re: The NetEA Codex list. How do you feel about it? A few Qs
PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 5:07 pm 
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Dobbsy wrote:
Does anyone see list creep in other lists being a problem for the Marines in general? A couple of folks have already spoken to me directly about the prevalence for new lists to include a lot of RA and MW these days - part of the reason I thought I'd ask how others felt.


Has always been a problem...
40k is forever introducing the newist, biggest, bangyist, gun. That is translated into MW/TK. Forgeworld for example is far more heavily armed the old 40k stuff (if they designed the rhino today would it really get a twin bolter?...).
The people test against the marine list, and introduce enough (ranged) MW/TK to beat them fairly consistently. Gamers then get hold of the list and slaughter said marines (most playtestors play for fun not to abuse things in my experience).
So marines go back to super hard termies and air assaults that can't be shot till the turn they arrive and warhounds with shields, etc etc.

Almost need a global reset button to bring down the hordes of MW back into line! (I mean, entire tank companies with MW shots - you either kill them with an air assault or a teleport, or they carve you up - a ground based marine list is always going to have problems.)


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