Thats terrible for the railgun.
And it was* not good against infantry because it's a single shot.
If it's get the MW status, that would mean equaly good against infantry, and vheicles which is not true in the case of RG.

The demolisher almost the same, but have the large blast in 40k, so it's a big boom of str10, Ap2... not a single shot.

The Tau railgun: as having the highest strenght with the best penetration possible - and compared to lascannon - maybe it's should be AT3+ and lance (better strenght AND better AP). Without AT3+ it would be too weak against non RA vehicles (where the lance spec does nothing).

*Have a new shot mode now, dispersed shot - Str6 AP4 large blast (fairly similar to heavy flamer in epic).
So together could be the epic railgun AP4+/AT3+ lance. (Only the AT whould be lance, possible to use like that?)

But of course I don't want to argue or something, this just my opinion as how I know the system.

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Epic armies:
Blood Angels
Codex Space Marines
Titan Legions

I actually use a Vindicator formation reasonably often in my SM lists - say 50% of the time - and find them ok. They are a niche unit for sure and I wouldn’t take more than one formation in a list but they add something distinctive I find useful; namely their ability to move freely into area terrain and to ignore cover when shooting. If you can keep them in cover and shooting at things in cover as much as possible during a game then they can perform well, if not then they can be a bit sub-par. They also get underestimated and considered low priority targets, which helps them survive.

I played a Minnervan army one time with my codex marines and Vindicators helped in my victory. I placed an objective in the middle of a large piece of woods (more than 10cm in on all sides) mid-table and doubled the Vindicators in to grab it. Minnervans only had 1 unit in their army that could move into the woods - a single Warhound - and when this got lured in attack them I then assaulted it and killed it. The Minnervans ended up conceded at the end of turn 1 as it was obvious they were going to loose.

Please no change to the Demolisher! This has been suggested in the past and wisely shot down. It's not justified by the 40k stats and everyone is very familiar with the current stats. It's a fairly widely used weapon - there are seven different epic units that use Demolishers fine in many different lists (including 9 approved IG, SM, CSM and LaTD lists). If there's a problem with Vindicators then keep it simple and fix them specifically, don't mess with so many different units and lists!

My preference would be to make the Vindicator upgrade +50 for 1 OR +75 for 2. Possibly drop the Vindicator formation to 200 also and/or have the option to upgrade Vindicators with more Vindicators.

Please explain how you are arriving at that conclusion?

Whilst I'm not 100% tied to a direct 40K translation, the arguments for MW based on 40k are pretty good.

In your thoughts, consider the Medusa, an almost identical weapon, which interestingly enough is MW.

Also, who is using the demolisher cannon widely, isn't that the reason for the whole debate? Few people use them, the majority of units that have then are considered sub par?

Put up a poll, see what the wider community thinks, problem with this sort of thing is that only those with strong views will comment.

Is the problem that not enough players are taking Vindicators, or that Space Marines lose a lot against war engines / other heavily-armored armies?

I’ve used them against my friend’s infantry-heavy Steel Legion army. In that context their shooting is quite good, though none of the shooting in SM lists is really devastating. The formations are too small. But they’ve been important ahead of a few engagements. I don’t think I can ask much more of a 225pt formation.

While the debate is centred on the Vindicator, the debate is basically a question of "fluff" vs E:A game mechanics / game play. I think we all agree that the Demolisher cannon should only be really viable in the right context, but then the question becomes just how effective against which targets. For what its worth, I hope we all understand / agree that 40K stats do not always convert easily into E:A, mainly due to the coarser E:A mechanics - this is a much more 'strategic' game where a lot of detail is abstracted or translated, hopefully providing the expected results though perhaps not in exactly the same way.

Several people have suggested the power of the Demolisher cannon is a 'borderline' question as far as E:A mechanics are concerned. I cannot comment on the Medusa Cannon, but in my experience it is often better to under-power weapons than overpower them. This puts the onus on the Player to use the right tactics etc rather than relying on the pure luck of the dice.

Intriguingly, I am not hearing people complain about all other units equipped with the Demolisher, suggesting that the issue is more with its use in particular units / situations. With respect, this suggests fixing these particular units and formations rather than changing the weapon stats - and equally accepting that these units may be more limited in their use than others.

Note, there is a striking parallel with the Eldar Cobra which effectively has the same issue; a slow unit with short ranged very powerfull weapon, but the unit underperforms - what to do? Why the obvious answer is make the weapon more powerfull - - - -

In this respect, I hope that we retain the niche status of the Cobra as a true 'titan hunter-killer' and the Demolisher equipped units as 'bunker-busters'.

Of course.

Well, not at all. A simple price drop whould do fine.

Two of them quite ideal. They move 25 - which is nice for a super heavy - with hower. So with an advance command they can lay out fire to move 25 + 30 weapon range = for 55cm 2 template with AP4+/AT5+ titan killer. And thats the center of the blast, so the actual damage range slightly biger.

My eldar opponent use them quite cowardly, all the time. With double action he hopping out, fire with -1, and hopping back.
Sorry but no pain, no gain cheater eldar.

However their price a bit too much. 25p less per cobra whould be a nice try I think.

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Epic armies:
Blood Angels
Codex Space Marines
Titan Legions

Not sure if someone else mentioned this, but what if vindi added disruption in addition to IC? It implies the "big boom" and terrifying nature o the cannon from a fluff perspective, really helps the limited number of shots the vindi has which also gives it a unique role, while avoiding the macro rule which may be a bit of an overcompensation.

viewtopic.php?f=69&t=28629

There's also a good point made by onyx that since the only weapon the Vindi even has is IC, that the FF value should bebIC as well.

I also think it was GlynG that mentioned Hunter-killer missiles as an upgrade one shot weapon which is fantastic idea as well

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Vaguely similar to the Baneblade discussion too, that has a variety of weapon systems but the low move speed is - IMO - the issue, but suggestions revolved (past tense!) around upgunning the main cannon.

It has since moved on to finding some way of getting the Baneblade closer to the enemy faster.

Amendments to the Codex list have now been made here.

Further developmental ideas will also be put forward in a trial list TBA.

Cheers for all the discussion in this thread folks.

Feel free to continue here if you have anything further to contribute.

Very solid changes. I think we can almost all agree they were the right choice to make (esp. typhoons).

Hopefully we can come to some sort of agreement on the other issues in the future. Thanks for the hard work Dobbsy.

I also support the hunter price drop some way.
A bit more options, like 1-2 hunter for more formations (especialy for devastators).

Also to do something with the whirlwinds. A little more range, or maybe giving the ignore cover ability (40k -> whirlwhind incendiary missiles), or just a simple price drop.

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Epic armies:
Blood Angels
Codex Space Marines
Titan Legions