Split from the DA thread for visibility


OK this Nephilim issue is causing far too much angst on both sides which is hampering development far too much. I would prefer if everyone could come to an agreement amicably but it doesn't look like it. Arguing back and forth over this with neither side giving up their argument helps no one. I don't think anyone is trying get one over on anyone but I think this has the potential to get worse as it has started to get personal when it really doesn't need to.

Sorry to all parties but I feel I have to do this or we'll never see this put to rest.


From here on we will trial it with the following stats.

2x planes 250 points

AMB 30cm range 2x AP3+/AT5+/AA5+
Darkshroud Missiles 30cm range AT5+

Removal of the Heavy Bolter to bring this unit back to some semblance of fairness using the Aircraft stat adjustment precedence of the Thunderbolt. We're trying to balance the unit, after all. They're just unnecessary at this point.

So then, 4xAA is more fair than x6 but still quite strong hence the minimal price drop to begin with given the weapon range of 30cm. A single aircraft still puts out the same AA as two TBs at 30cm.... 125 points each compared with 87.5 each for a TB, I believe, is a reasonable start. It can change but for the moment it won't.

AT5+ Missiles for a weapon system still in its infancy is a reasonable start and there doesn't need to be an AA attack on them regardless of what 40K might say. We're not going to stat Epic like 40K

Reasoning:

1/It downgrades the silly amount of shooty that the 3 aircraft had.
2/It keeps the AMB stat that matches the Titan weapon as per AoC's preference.
3/It keeps the unit's dual role ability for flexibility and some of its potency.


To help try to keep the status quo, please just try these stats for any further DA playtests.

Hopefully we can now move on and get the DA list sorted out.

Thanks guys.

Cool bean, boss

Are both 30cm? (or did I miss that?)

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Yep Amended the post

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I had a long, very ranty, very bad-tempered post typed up then I saw this. Thank you for doing this, Dobbsy. We've argued plenty before, but this was well needed.


I do think I'd prefer the lascannon variant (just to make it less ground attack but still as good at AA), but a 45cm AA blast is just too much on interceptors. These stats work as a good compromise that I hope people can get behind. Personally, I would love to hear how it works 'in the real world' under game conditions.

Thanks Dobbsy. Those stats bring the A/c and formation back in line with current aircraft power while leaving the Eldar at the top of the power curve.

My only request is that we (the entire community) recognise that AP3+ is an exception and should *not* form a precedent for whatever silliness 40K may come up with next.

The tail doesn't wag the dog, so 40K doesn't dictate to Epic balance.

True, provided we keep reminding the dog that he is in control of his own tail and not the reverse.

Just want to note that this is still the stat line of a Super Thunderbolt (better AA, better AT, better AP, better save). Oh, and init too, right? IIRC t-bolts are init 2+, while this, being a Marine craft, would be init 1+?

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- Ulrik

I'm glad we moved to two for 250 - it helped decide points for my adjustment. I dropped the Lascannon idea because the issue of AA3+ intercept at 45cm is just too divisive and air power in epic should not be that strong.

Like I said, mate, I'm sorry this has to be done but the endless argument isn't helping and going by messages several people have already decided to stop playing the list and that's not a good thing for the development of a list that's highly anticipated.


I think things should be the same across lists too so I tried to give everyone something as a compromise..


Yep understood Ulrik and like I said, I think 125 per plane is a decent beginning for those stats compared with 87.5 for a TB. They do still die fairly easily and most ground flak range is 30-45cm+. For now we'll try these and adjust again later - provided people will persevere with playing the list...

Maybe we can revisit this if I manage to get airborne twin lascannon changed to 30cm AT4+/AA5+
Note that 30cm AA is good because lots of defensive AA on bombers is 15cm.

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Well, any thought of my trying to give testing a try died right there. Good luck with development, to those brave (and thick-skinned) souls that want to keep going through this.

And after that I'll get them to change Russes to 3+ save (no RA, 50 pts) and support fire FF range to 20 cm!

More seriously it could be called a Nephilim Lascannon (30cm, AT4+/AA5+), and you'd have an interesting interceptor/tank hunter with AT/AA missiles. But I'll shut up now.

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- Ulrik

While I'd potentially agree on the Leman Russ front, I'm curious why you'd propose 20cm support fire range.