Tactical Command
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/

Black Templars 4.2
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=73&t=28100		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  GlynG [ Sun Aug 31, 2014 10:32 am ]
Post subject:  Black Templars 4.2
I'm uploading a slightly modified Black Templars list, with a few small tweaks. Overall I'm pretty happy with how the list seems to be doing and I want to encourage people to test it with the aim of trying to get it approved in the coming months (me and Greg will get 6 battle reports up each so we just need one other group to do the same).

Attachment:
Black Templars Army List 4.2.xls [15 KiB]
Downloaded 1017 times

Attachment:
Black Templars Reference 4.2.xls [17.5 KiB]
Downloaded 809 times


The Stormtalon's Assault Cannon will now be range 30cm as per the discussion in the Stormtalon thread. Greg has been fine with the existing 15cm but myself and Jimmy have been a little underwhelmed by it in our games. It will now have the same AA offensive capability as a Thunderbolt, but at a greater cost.

Neophyte changes: An upgrade of 2 of Neophytes will now cost +50 points rather than +75, which was overcosted for what you get. Due to the advantages of higher numbers of activations, upgrades to formations are worth less than separate formations and are normally costed less per unit. Neophytes then are as SM Scouts but lacking scout, infiltrate or a shooting attack so it makes sense for them to be cheaper (Epic-UK have priced Neophytes even cheaper again at +25 for 2 in their BT list but I feel this might be too cheap).

I removed the option for upgrading a single formation with 4 Neophytes, as it allows for some monster sized ATSKNF formations and just doesn't seem needed to me. It seems unlikely for a formation to have two thirds as many Neophytes as Inititates as they're not that common (making up roughly 10% of a chapter normally) and those that there are would likely be split up to be better taught.

I reduced the maximum number of Neophyte Biker units to 3 rather than 4 also.
Author:  jimmyzimms [ Sun Aug 31, 2014 4:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Black Templars 4.2
This is looking pretty good!
Author:  Commissar Holt [ Mon Sep 01, 2014 8:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Black Templars 4.2
Looks interesting!

1) I have some minor confusion around the Emperor's Champion, that is not 100% clear to me.
-CC sniper. How would this work, when you score a hit? The target can be chosen by those in base contact with the unit containing the EC or from the entire formation that is within the engagement range (15 cm) ?
-no leader. All Space Marine characters have leader ability, which is almost the best if not the best ability to have, beacuse ATSKNF. For some degree it reduces the effectives of the EC. I would take chaplain or castellan instead...

2) Dreadnought costs missing from the Armylist.

3) For first glance, the sword brethren formation can be pretty cool engage kings. I would advise to stress test them. (They are literally Epic-UK Tac marines with 3+ CC and infiltration... okay they take up a support slot...)


Anyway I like the list, and it's cool to have someone to work on it! Black Templars are my favourite chapter, beacuse of their story and mentality!

You are on a promising way with this armylist! :) Thanks!
Author:  GlynG [ Tue Sep 02, 2014 9:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Black Templars 4.2
I believe the first option is correct: the BT rolls the sniper attack separately and can choose to allocate the sniper hit to any unit in base contact with himself only.

An Emperor's Champion is more of a combat character, engaging enemy characters in combat and the like, rather than leading the troops, so no leader fits. It having fearless is pretty handy sometimes and could save a formation (perhaps BTS) from being wiped out should a combat go bad.

Quote:
I would take chaplain or castellan instead...

No getting around it - a Black Templars army is required to take an Emperor's Champion in the army list.

I've re-uploaded a corrected version of the document fixing the Dreadnought, thanks!

Sword Brethren are quite powerful, but they are +25 points more than Net-EA Tactical Marines and they lack a ranged attack. I will try taking a lot of them and seeing how they do but they've been that way in the list for many years and have seen a lot of testing already. The list has more powerful assault and air elements, but balancing downsides with the reduced shooting options and no titans.

Let us know if you manage to get any games in with them? Good to have interest :)
Author:  Ginger [ Tue Sep 02, 2014 10:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Black Templars 4.2
LoL, Glyn got there just before me - :D

1) I believe Glyn has tweaked the list that is in the compendium.
  • The Emperor's Champion is already defined without "leader".
  • CC Sniper uses the same mechanism in the rules; a hit caused by that die roll is assigned by the BT player to any enemy target in range (15cm) and LoS. That target gets -1 on it's armour save.
    (Imagine a really big guy with a huge weapon striding ahead of his formation aiming to hit a specific enemy target . . . . this makes him usefull for attacking enemy 'inspiring' characters, but leaves him vulnerable to CC hits in return)
  • Note the Black Templars *must* have a champion, and IMO along with the other iconic elements this adds colour to the list.

2) The Dreadnought upgrade is the standard cost of 50 points.

3) As you have already indicated, the Sword Brethren (and all the standard marine formations) are restricted to the number of Crusader formations fielded. Their assault stats are effectively the same as the standard marine bike but they lack the innate mobility of that unit (which is why Marine bikes are so cool), cannot shoot and are 25 points more than normal Tacticals.
Sword Brethren need to be put 'up close and personal' making them more reliant on THawks and other transport, all of which makes them balanced and IMO gives the right 'feel' for the Templars list.
Author:  GlynG [ Tue Sep 02, 2014 10:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Black Templars 4.2
Go with Ginger's explanation then, I hadn't been entirely sure how it was meant to work. CC Sniper is rare, but not unprecedented as Lictors have it too.

Sword Brethren also seem like they'd make good drop-podders as they get the shooting attack from that and get to land close to the enemy, but this would be counterbalanced by the BT list not having any 4 strong infantry formation that can drop pod, so being limited to only 3 formations being able to drop from a strike cruiser rather then up to 5 in other SM lists.
Author:  Commissar Holt [ Thu Sep 04, 2014 1:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Black Templars 4.2
Hi!

Thanks for replies!

TBH I misread the sword brethren somehow. I thought they had the same shooting attack as Tac marines. Well that makes a difference. :)
Testing will tell how much.

Emperor's Champion: Fluffwise he is correct as you have written. Fearless Marine CC hero, seeking enemy chiefs / champions.
But idk, maybe UK version planted the bug in my ears. They have him as an additional character, with inspiring, leader, invu, fearless and MW extra...now that's really heroic! :D I mean it may affect nearby Marines seeing him (inspiring?), as their Chapter's chosen one, fitted with the best weapon and armor available to them.
Also it is part of the story if the champion falls, it is a bad omen for the Black Templars.

So I think if you want to go with the fluff, and have players take this iconic character [not by enforcing it], it would be useful to make him equally good or better than "ordinary" Marine characters. For drawback, he should get the same rule, which many other list has for it's super-unique stuff.
If the Emperor's Champion dies, all Black Templar formation within LoS receive a Blast marker.

EDIT: These are merely suggestions / opinions. :) I will try it out anyway, whenever I can persuade my SM opponent to switch armies. (I only have a large IG army, currently)
Author:  GlynG [ Fri Nov 14, 2014 11:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Black Templars 4.2
Looking at the Epic-UK Emperor's Champion he looks very powerful – same as a Chaplain character, plus Fearless on top for half the price at 25 points. I guess they're not caring about overpowering the character as it's only 0-1 in army and they see the army as having disadvantages in not having titans or cheap Thunderbolts.

Thanks for the suggestion Commissar Holt but I don't want to change things too radically so will pass on the blast markers on formations in LOS if he dies idea. Besides, it seems reasonable that if he dies nearby formations would fight all the harder – to recover his body and the sacred armour he wears to be passed on to the next champion.

I am coming round to thinking he's a bit subpar at the moment though and that the list could do with a little bit of a boost. I think I probably will change the Emperor's Champion to have inspiring as well. Compared to a Chaplain he'd then have fearless on top but with a sniper CC weapon rather than a MW one and the downside of no leader. Cost would stay at 50 though. If no-one has any strong objections I'll stick up a new list version in a few days to make this change.

To add a quick update of the testing progress, we're getting there. PFE tested the list and put up 6 battle reports and I've played the list a bit more now with 3 battle reports up (and a 4th played that I just need to write up). I'll get another few games played and reported in the coming few months so we'll then have two groups having playtested it a good amount. In order to get it approved for inclusion in the Tournament Pack I could just do with one other group around the world to take on testing it and putting up 6 reports – any interest?

The list has lost more than it's won so far. My feeling is the list might be bit trickier and more limited to use than the Codex list, but overall I believe it represents their character well and I think it can be competitive enough if played in the right way. I'll keep assessing things and how it does in games to come though.
Author:  jimmyzimms [ Sat Nov 15, 2014 1:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Black Templars 4.2
I'm planning one more Space Puppies for Dobbsy and then going to try and pivot to this. Any match ups we need more than others?
Author:  GlynG [ Sat Nov 15, 2014 11:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Black Templars 4.2
Great! :) Once I get 6+ Templars games I'm thinking of switching my SM playtesting to test Dobbsy's Wolves myself.

So far there have been battle reports against: Tau, Tyranids, Minnervan, Biel-tan (twice), Orks (twice), Necrons and Scions of Iron. Seems a reasonable mix.

Feel free to play whatever you have or like, though more variety of opposing armies is good.
Author:  colm [ Wed Dec 17, 2014 3:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Black Templars 4.2
Hi all,

Does the sword brethren's "infiltrate" also apply to any transports the unit gets (rhinos, LRC, etc), giving them a 65cm cc / 80cm firefight assault range?

Or does it only come into play when boots are already on the ground when they activate?

Regards,

Colm
Author:  Ginger [ Wed Dec 17, 2014 7:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Black Templars 4.2
Most abilities only apply to the unit and so are not transferred to other units in the formation. So Marine Scouts, Sword Bretheren, Howling Banshees etc only have Infiltrate when they have "boots on the ground". Note that an "Inspiring" character and BMs apply to the entire formation so both apply in assault resolution if the transport carrying them is assaulted, even if the units remain inside their transport.
Author:  colm [ Thu Dec 18, 2014 8:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Black Templars 4.2
Thanks! That's kinda what I thought the answer would be.

Colm
Author:  Kookookrazy [ Wed Aug 19, 2015 12:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Black Templars 4.2
What is the status of this list? A friend is interested in running it and wanted to know how far off approval stage it is?
Author:  Caz [ Wed Aug 19, 2015 8:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Black Templars 4.2
This does look like a very interesting list and am willing to help play with/play against it if it needs some more interest
Page 1 of 2 All times are UTC [ DST ]
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
http://www.phpbb.com/