uvenlord, I think we're good to go if you can get another report in. This is what I have everyone down for, plus I have one more from my group that I need to post (hopefully today).


Uvenlord (5/6)
viewtopic.php?t=28028
viewtopic.php?t=28484
viewtopic.php?t=30102
viewtopic.php?t=30553
viewtopic.php?t=30631

PFE (6/4)
viewtopic.php?t=27762
viewtopic.php?t=27812
viewtopic.php?t=27855
viewtopic.php?t=27898
viewtopic.php?t=27957
viewtopic.php?t=28014

Mordoten (4/4)
viewtopic.php?t=28055
viewtopic.php?t=28127
viewtopic.php?t=28159
viewtopic.php?t=28525

Dave and gunslinger007 (5/4)
viewtopic.php?t=26631
viewtopic.php?t=29128
viewtopic.php?p=578881#p578881
viewtopic.php?t=30570
viewtopic.php?t=30606

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Squats 2019-10-17

Thanks for the compilation
Will try and get a game this weekend.

What do you think of the list? Have these things in mind but I do not know if they are worth doing...

Will probably change the gray hunters back before submitting due to popular demand... (300 points, 3CC+, Hero)

Not to happy about the Bloodclaw rule but I will probably not change it before submitting, perhaps I'll revert it to Dobbsys origninal rule too. Right now the rule does not represent their bloodlust, just makes them uncontrollable...

I like the idea of taking away the restrictions on the Great Companies and making people take at least 1 instead.

It also bugs me that the Lone wolfs have strange weapon stats, perhaps a normal devastator weapon load-out (but with a bonus shot)for the next revision?

Anyway hopefully I'll get a report in soon and we can go from there?

I'm excited to see the Wolves going up for a vote soon!

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viewtopic.php?f=84&t=30750
My "last" report is up.

Not sure we can use Mordotens reports but I'll try.
Will wrap up something during the coming week to send in.

So what do you think of the following?
My intent is to make the list simple but with some fur.

Changes from Dobbsys original list:
1. Sniper upgrade, Typhoon upgrade from codex list made.
2. Thunderhawks and Landingcraft made the same cost as Codex
3. Changed the wording on Pack Mentality.
4. Lots of formatting that should not change the actual rules.
Note: I hereby revoke my change on the Gray Hunters (due to popular demand) so it is as in the original document CC 3+. Same goes to the “Unblooded rule”

Proposed changes
These can be made if the ERC think it is wise to do them now or be delayed to after approval and then be done with some testing, or not at all

1. Getting the BloodClaws, SwiftClaws and Skyclaws in line with normal assault marines etc., thus FF 5+ today they have 6+. (4+ for the bikes).
2. Long Fang weapons change to 2x Missile Launcher and 1x Lascannon with normal stats.
3. Points drop to 275 for the Long Fangs if the nerf above is ok.
4. Take away the ratio 1:1 Great Co to Hunting packs. Making 1+ Great Co compulsory instead.
5. Remove all options on the Great Co. I find no real fluff reason to them having the ability to add different units or more units to a formations. Basically it looks like the Claws is more, Gray Hunters about 10 and Long Fangs less…
6. Removing the Land Raider Crusader. Is this a “Space Wolf vehicle”? I do not think so. If I’m wrong or if it get added to the Codex list it can come back
7. Take away the Skyclaws upgrade so the only can be 6 in a formation to reduce possible Thunderhawk exploit.

Long Term changes = after approval and with more testing
1. Adding Thunderwolves
2. Changing the “Unblooded” rule. I do not like it, to give BloodClaws 2+ initiative seems wrong. They want to get into a fight and is hard to hold back. They do not to stand still and regroup… Right now I have no good solution though, and it will certainly impact the army so we need to test it out before changing anything
3. I want to remove ATSKNF from the Fenris Wolves (and add scout instead or make them better in CC in some way?)
4. Add Pair of Warhounds. (No singeltons)

Bringing the upgrades and costs in line with the Codex list is good. During the games we played with them I didn't think the list played differently enough to warrant different costs.

Same goes for FF5+ *claws and CC3+ Grey Hunters. *claws' initiative adjustment was enough flavor for them, FF6+ saw them taken advantage of in FF on a few occasions to the point where it felt un-mariney.

Changing the Long Fangs price and weapons all in one go is too much flux in my opinion. I'm not sure what 40k is doing now-a-days but Long Fangs used to have a 5-man max squad size but could still take 4 heavy weapons. Given that, something like a Twin Missile Launcher and Twin Lascannon, or 2x Twin Missile Launcher would fit with that and be pretty close to their current abilities (enough not to warrant a price change).

Everything after that is dealing with altering formations and removing options from the list, which I think is too much change given 18 games. The only one I could still get behind would be removing the 1:1 Great Co/Hunting Pack restriction. It never came up when I was putting together a list, I didn't feel it was a restriction at all.

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Squats 2019-10-17

Uven, I've always thought something more similar to the way the Fury rule works is probably better fit. Basically if you CAN get into b2b, you must or take the -1 penalty. They want to get into the scrap but they're still well trained enough to handle themselves normally. I will say that I DO love the counter charge part of Unbloodied which I'd hate to see dropped.

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Agree.
Will change the Long Fang Suggestion to 2 of each (lascannon and missile launcher)
That said, lets assume the other changes go through (formations and upgrades been removed etc) do you think they are good or bad?
They are proposed changes and I feel that most of them is too much before more testing that's why I haven't brought them up before. But then you said I could bring a whish list so why not try if they feel right. Some might go through

Lets cook something together after approval
Where can I find the Fury rules? Blood angels, Black Templars?

yeah there's one on the BA though as worded is not the exact intentions that Ben had when he made the list originally. If I was to rule by fiat I'd probably "lift" this rule from lists into universal abilities in the rules itself and write it as such:



Basically they use whatever init the unit(s) natively have but when they can assault, they must or suffer a -1. In effect, dragging their comrades with then into an assault ("Hey you darned! Where you going? Shit... come on guys follow them!" aka Leeroy Jenkins). In addition, if they CAN reach b2b, they must.

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I was actually suggestions 2 twin weapons (ML or LC), 4 shots for an infantry stand hasn't happened yet.

On the other changes, I'm generally not in favor or long standing upgrades/options/units being dropped in a development list. Ideally, what you can build with the list should be nailed down before calling it "dev". Otherwise, it starts to piss people off that they can't play with models they've bought and/or painted.

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Squats 2019-10-17

How would a twin missile launcher look then?

I do not think the removal of some of the upgrades will upset too many people. Most of the models can still be used in other formations. But like I said before, these changes might be to big to sneak in right before the end.

2x twin missile launcher 45cm ap4+/at5+

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Squats 2019-10-17

Hmm, so basically we make the formation a little weaker against AT and lower the maximum output.
Would you still keep the cost?
Not that found of adding another weapontype (even if lots of units uses the twin thing)
Will think about it, it sure bother me less then the generic weapons but still...

So this is what I will send to the ERC:



Changes from Dobbsys original list:

1. Sniper upgrade, Typhoon upgrade from codex list made.
2. Thunderhawks and Landingcraft made the same cost as Codex
3. Changed the wording on Pack Mentality.
4. Lots of formatting that should not change the actual rules.


Changes that I would like to do but that is not written in the list. (They can be approved one by one or not at all. Placed in order of importance)

1. Getting the BloodClaws, SwiftClaws and Skyclaws in line with normal assault marines etc., thus FF 5+ today they have 6+. (4+ for the bikes).
2. Take away the ratio 1:1 Great Co to Hunting packs. Making 1+ Great Co compulsory instead.
3. Removing the Land Raider Crusader. Is this a “Space Wolf vehicle”? I do not think so. If I’m wrong or if it get added to the Codex list it can come back
4. Take away the Skyclaws upgrade so the only can be 6 in a formation to reduce possible Thunderhawk exploit.
5. Remove all options on the Great Co. I find no real fluff reason to them having the ability to add different units. Basically it looks like the Claws is more, Gray Hunters about 10 and Long Fangs less…

Overall testing has showed that this list is fairly balanced and it have been quite stable the last couple of years.
When I took over my main goal (and mission from the AC) was to get the final stage done so the list could be approved. Basically I have done that and tried to simplify and make the list look more like the ones in the current tournament pack.
Changes have been minor after the testing (25p tweaks)

I have had my eyes on the Long Fangs weapon output (and some other things)but decided to leave that to the next revision so it can be properly tested. It's primarily not a balance issue more "getting in line"...

I can say categorically that LR Crusaders will never be added to the Codex list (at least under my watch ).
Or were you using that slyly and jokingly?

Personally I really like the crusader in this list being such a FF orientated army they add to the oodles of dice you're throwing at the enemy >:)

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-I HAVE NO POINT
-Penal Legion-Fan list
-Help me make Whitescars not suck!