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Space Wolves 2.4.2 the final version

 Post subject: Space Wolves 2.4.2 the final version
PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2014 11:03 am 
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Here's the final version for inclusion in next year's Compendium/Tournament pack (if it gets approved by then).

The only changes are:

Dreadnoughts and the Venerable Dreadnought upgrades added to various infantry formations.

Adjusted the Land Speeder formation to include Tornados (now a free option in almost all other lists) in the description thus making Typhoons the only upgrade for the Land Speeder formation.


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 Post subject: Re: Space Wolves 2.4.2 the final version
PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2014 11:40 am 
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I've been meaning to bring it for a while, but I don't think I got round to it: Pack Mentality concerns me. I think it would be wise to remove the option to include formations when defending from an assault. I can think of a number of ways to abuse it and have it be overpowered and gamey. Having say 3 nearby formations each with a chaplain and another formation with a commander, position that formation closer to the enemy and if it gets attacked it can declare itself to be a giant formation to get outnumbering and +3 chaplain inspiring. The space wolf player could design a list strategy around the rule, castling several or more formations with chaplains in a clump with a defensive perimeter of Land Speeders with battle leaders. Alternatively a massed drop pod assault with lots of chaplains and some commanders, could be nasty.

When they adapted their version Epic-UK made the rule only apply when the battle leader launched the assault rather than defensively too and I think this would be a sensible idea to adopt too.

Other changes sound good. Hopefully we can get the listed tested and approved for the TP this year.


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 Post subject: Re: Space Wolves 2.4.2 the final version
PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2014 5:42 pm 
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Ok so this means you need the 18 battlereports now, yes? I mean for the approval process.


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 Post subject: Re: Space Wolves 2.4.2 the final version
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 1:56 am 
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Borka wrote:
Ok so this means you need the 18 battlereports now, yes? I mean for the approval process.

Yes, 6 Batreps from 3 separate groups.


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 Post subject: Re: Space Wolves 2.4.2 the final version
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 9:18 am 
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I think i can help out. And this is not by interest, just being a good trooper for a cause i´ve been screaming alot about... :-) I get to play 1-2 battles a week so i should be able to do this in 2 months...

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 Post subject: Re: Space Wolves 2.4.2 the final version
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 10:12 am 
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Excellent Mordoten! That'd be great. :) Cal001's group are looking to help as well.


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 Post subject: Re: Space Wolves 2.4.2 the final version
PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2014 7:27 am 
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Hi Dobbsy,

Sethanon and I had a quick 3k game with the wolves on thursday night, unfortunately we had a bit of a technology fail so no pics of the event however the wolves went down 2:1 after some sneaky last turn antics by the tricksy eldar.

I wanted to try the wolves in a different manner to how we typically see them so I took a list based around dropping from a strike cruiser on turn 1.

List was:
Great coy + wolf lord + 2 long fangs + hunter + razorback
Great coy + rune priest + 2 wolf guard
Great coy + wolf priest + 1 wolf guard
Wolf guard + wolf priest + dreadnought
Landspeeders
Landraiders + hunter
Strike cruiser
Fenrisian wolves
Scouts

Eldar was something like
Guardians + 3 hvy wpns
2x bikes
3x SOV
Revenants
Aspect warriors + Autach + wave serpents
Wavespinners
Nightwings

I forced a corner setup and put my objectives fairly close to the eldar blitz, eldar were spread out. No Garrisons. Strike cruiser bombardment was set for the short board edge deployment zone with the wolf guard coming down in that spot whilst he 2 other coy were around an obj close to the eldar.

1st turn I teleported in the scouts to hold the eldar in place but then lost the initiative. The eldar used two activations to see off the scouts and then the aspect warriors escaped and took off towards a corner. I then brought on the cruiser, killed some bikes with the bombardment and then did more damage with the drop pod attacks. By the time they were done, one SOV was broken, as were the guardians and some other units were carrying BM. I then retained and sent the rune priest in to assault the revenants. They killed one by I rolled a bag of 1s for saves to in the end the Great coy was wiped out (2 rnds of aslt) and the eldar BTS broken. The eldar then tried to kill off the second great coy before it could aslt. Thankfully the night spinners only caused a hit (which saved) then then a formation of eldar bikes engaged them. Counter charge brought all the coy to into FF range and it went to a second round. In the second counter charge a SOV unit was contacted. The wolves did well and wiped out both the eldar units for the loss of 2 or 3 grey hunters.

This Great coy then used it consolidation and engagement move to assault the night spinners which they broke, but they also lost some more hunters in return and became broken. I was then going to assault with the wolf guard but thought a advance toward the aspects might be better for the next turn. 9 assault cannons into a unit of bikes should have seen them off but they saved every hit :( Next the final SOV moved up to shoot the wolf guard but the hits were saved.

By this stage the eldar were either done or broken and their only units left to activate was the night wings and bikes the wolf guard fired on. I should have thought this through better but I marched up the landspeeders next to support the wolf guard and pin in the bikes, but foolishly this took them outside my AA umbrella. The nightwings pounced on them and I lost 3. I used their withdrawal move to hold up the bikes but the bikes then engaged the speeders. They lost 2 units each so the LS were all dead and the eldar bikes broke and moved 30cm away from any SW.

The remaining activations were all march moves as I moved up the wolf lord's Great Coy, Landraiders and wolves into positions for turn 2.

Eldar only rallied the guardians and maybe a SOV? the rest of the eldar moved away from the SW. My broken Great coy failed but that was the only SW unit with BM or broken I think.

Turn 2
The eldar farseer birthed the Avatar but SW got the initiative.

Not wanting the aspects to get away the landraiders doubled up to support the wolfguard against the avatar and guardians but fired into the fleeing aspects. They killed 2 waveserpents and 3 aspects. The wolfguard then charged in to the remaining guardians and the avatar. The guardians were wiped out and the avatar died but only a stand of wolfguard remained after some ordinary saving rolls. A single dire avenger lent supporting fire so the BM he gained plus the BM from the avatar's death broke the aspects and killed some unrallied bikes etc. The eldar didn't do much else in turn two but the nightwings did kill the Hunter attached to the Landraiders. I moved up my great coy in rhinos and killed off a SOV unit that was broken, the revenant was too far away and the aspect had broken towards my blitz. I send the wolfs after them and despite a few making CC with aspects due to infiltrator they got pasted (2nd stupid move of the game)

End of turn most of the remaining eldar rallied as did the SW.

Turn 3 I got the initiative.

Having thrown away the landspeeders and wolves I was going to struggle to contain the eldar. The landraiders went after the aspects again and broke them. I ended up using the mech great coy to take the blitz and the wolf guard and remaining drop great coy to take both T&H objectives but the eldar had a rallied SOV unit and a single revenant that earned them T&H and Blitz. Then a rallied bike unit I couldn't get to earlier in the turn raced out of hiding to contest both T&H obj so I lost 1:2.

This was a fun game for both of us and the first time we had tried a SM drop force. The brutallity of the first turn was pretty intense and made for a completely different 1st turn that what we are used to with eldar. With a couple of better decisions the eldar shouldn't have had a chance to get back in the game. As it was Sethanon was very clever with his choice of activations that he had left after the drop and managed to hold onto just enough left overs to claim the vital objectives despite having a taken a full strike cruisers worth of angry SW on turn 1.

We did agree after the game that the SW were pretty unlucky with their saves and "statistically" should have done better in some of the first turn assaults. In saying that the eldar need to be contained if you want to beat them and I failed to do this well. I should have also picked some other units instead of the landraiders and wolves as supporting choices as they were too slow or unsuited to supporting the drop elements.


So first time I've used this wolves list myself, as opposed to playing against it, and I feel its pretty competitive. Doing this again I would change the list some and aim to make use of the pack mentality rule a bit more.

List wise I still dislike the ability to take large units of skyclaws, "this is not how RUSS intended us to fight!" and apart from warhounds and teleporting terminators the list doesn't seem to loose out much (in comparison to other SM alternatives IMHO) but otherwise it represents the SW fluff well. I think the points/abilities are pretty good balance wise. We didn't find anything OTT, but i think the SW are well setup for this kind of aggressive in your face attack due to increased unit size and the ability to get some Wolfguard into each Great coy.


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 Post subject: Re: Space Wolves 2.4.2 the final version
PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2014 8:18 am 
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Excellent, thanks Ortron.

Can you elaborate more on the Skyclaws? How do you think Russ intended them to fight? :) The main reason you can buy 8 is that I basically doubled the 12-15 men (rough standard for SW Blood Claw packs in 40K) similar to how a tactical formation gets 3 squads of 10 (6 units) or Assault formations get two squads (20 men=4 units) in Epic. Also the theme of the list is "small horde" so more was necessary to impart that. Also because you get 6 you lose two slots for Thunderhawk deployment so an additional 2 seemed a nice filler.


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 Post subject: Re: Space Wolves 2.4.2 the final version
PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2014 9:33 am 
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sure mate,

Some fluff references:
SW 3rd ed codex: "the space wolves have a perverse disdain for jump packs, preferring to fight with both feet firmly planted on the ground "as Russ intended". Sometimes however, a pack of Blood Claws (who are too short in the tooth to know any better) will be equipped with jump packs to carry out a special mission."
- note in this version, the standard blood claw pack was 5-15 but sky claws are 3-8

SW 5th ed codex: "The promotion to Skyclaw is seen as a dubious honour at best by more mature brethren, not because of the heightened risk of a quick and violent death, but because if fighting on foot was good enough for their Primarch, it's good enough for them too! Such disapproval just makes the skyclaws more determined to prove themselves in the eyes of their elders...."
- note in this version, the standard blood claw pack is 5-15 but skyclaws are 5-10.

There are probably others but these are two quick ones.

I just think that they should go back to a formation of 4, or be limited in some way. Presently when delivered by thunderhawk they are very good, and the unit strength of 6-8 combined with the wolf priest makes them better at this tactic than the more experienced aslt marines of standard chapters and on par or better than blood angels, for whom this is their preferred method of war.. Coming in by Thawk also means initiative 2 is not an issue.

My preference would be limited a 0-2 choice and limited to unit strength of 4. If you want bulk blood claws go on foot.


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 Post subject: Re: Space Wolves 2.4.2 the final version
PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2014 9:58 am 
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ortron wrote:
I just think that they should go back to a formation of 4, or be limited in some way. Presently when delivered by thunderhawk they are very good, and the unit strength of 6-8 combined with the wolf priest makes them better at this tactic than the more experienced aslt marines of standard chapters and on par or better than blood angels

OK, gotcha.

You don't feel two 4-unit packs with 2 Wolf Priests in a TH worse...? One pack is also actually a draw back as you essentially lose an activation and only get the one character. The list is designed so you can't pop too many cheap formations in to boost activations (a trade-off foe the larger formation sizes) and 4-unit Skyclaws would allow this.

ortron wrote:
Coming in by Thawk also means initiative 2 is not an issue.

What about afterwards on the ground? Not an issue?

ortron wrote:
My preference would be limited a 0-2 choice and limited to unit strength of 4. If you want bulk blood claws go on foot.

I won't put in a hard limit choice. Epic is bigger and abstraction would allow for the current design as a single list isn't necessarily a single Great Company per se (that's more the player's choice when he paints the army) so in essence, multiple Skyclaws could be put together for any number of reasons.


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 Post subject: Re: Space Wolves 2.4.2 the final version
PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2014 10:28 am 
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Dobbsy wrote:

You don't feel two 4-unit packs with 2 Wolf Priests in a TH worse...? One pack is also actually a draw back as you essentially lose an activation and only get the one character. The list is designed so you can't pop too many cheap formations in to boost activations (a trade-off foe the larger formation sizes) and 4-unit Skyclaws would allow this.

ortron wrote:
Coming in by Thawk also means initiative 2 is not an issue.

What about afterwards on the ground? Not an issue?

ortron wrote:
My preference would be limited a 0-2 choice and limited to unit strength of 4. If you want bulk blood claws go on foot.

I won't put in a hard limit choice. Epic is bigger and abstraction would allow for the current design as a single list isn't necessarily a single Great Company per se (that's more the player's choice when he paints the army) so in essence, multiple Skyclaws could be put together for any number of reasons.


hey man, its your list so do what you want. It just doesn't feel right IMHO.

Yes two units in a Thawk w/ two priests is better on the first time they hit but you'd have to buy two great companies to do it, and they're easier to break afterward.

Yes initiative 2 may have an impact once they're landed, assuming they don't get back in the Thawk, but they're also likely to be in assault range of something else after being air transported so they'll effectively be initiative 1 anyway.

Your point on the hard limit makes sense.

Look at the end of the day, its only my opinion, if no one else cares then go for it. I just think in comparison to DA, Sallies, Scions, fists etc, the wolves get some cool stuff without much of a loss in options.


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 Post subject: Re: Space Wolves 2.4.2 the final version
PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2014 1:00 pm 
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Your opinion counts and it's something I'll keep an eye on. I'd like to see more use of the formation really. I haven't had any other negative feedback about it so far (from the start of the list even) so I'm eager to see more reports from people about the Skyclaws.

Would like to see the impact of 2x 6units in a Landing Craft as well.


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 Post subject: Re: Space Wolves 2.4.2 the final version
PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 2:33 pm 
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Space Wolves got an aircraft
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthrea ... ost7222351

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 Post subject: Re: Space Wolves 2.4.2 the final version
PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 2:42 pm 
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:D :D :D No, they really didn't. :D

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