Login |  Register |  FAQ
   
Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 27 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

Imperial fists siege assault vanguard v0.1 EXPERIMENTAL

 Post subject: Imperial fists siege assault vanguard v0.1 EXPERIMENTAL
PostPosted: Wed Dec 25, 2013 11:04 pm 
Hybrid
Hybrid
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2011 12:03 pm
Posts: 6355
Location: Leicester UK
This list was a very early draft and has now been superseded, unless someone else wants to start again, Imperial Fists development has moved to This thread. I am leaving this thread here as the discussion may be useful to reference in ongoing discussions

As a last-minute christmas present, I give to you, a very early draft of the all-new imperial fists list

I've based it on frogbear's list with elements from blacklegion's siege assault list, I have a good mind to create a second, more defensive planetary taskforce type list with minefields and sentry guns

I think this list encourages a more aggressive playstyle, and hopefully can pack a decent punch even after taking a beating

it's very early days, please please give it at least one game before ripping it to pieces ;) I'm really keen to hear people's opinions, but as usual, batreps and experience speak much louder than complaining... try the list, you might like it ;)

I envisage this as a ground pounding, armour heavy force, I have several ideas in mind to theme it more strongly, but felt a slightly broader starting point would be beneficial, we can always pare stuff down in later versions

let me know your thoughts (and apologies for the awful documents, working with zero computer skills and openoffice here)

edit: Uploaded new list with points revisions

_________________
Just some guy

My hobby/painting threads

Army Forge List Co-ordinator


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Imperial fists siege assault vanguard v0.1 EXPERIMENTAL
PostPosted: Wed Dec 25, 2013 11:53 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2005 1:24 am
Posts: 4499
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Three small adjustments may be needed. Tacticals are 275, Land Raiders are 325 and the Warlord 825 in the Codex list. ;)


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Imperial fists siege assault vanguard v0.1 EXPERIMENTAL
PostPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2013 1:06 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 11, 2003 7:27 pm
Posts: 5602
Location: Bristol
The list NEEDS Assault Centurions and Devestator Centurions. The Imperial Fists use loads of them - see GW's new Imperial Fists codex (Sentinels of Terra), where lots of Centurions is the core of how the Imperial Fists list differs from codex marines.

I like the +75 for 2 Vindicators :)

You've used the wrong list as the base and missed out the 2012 changes to the core list. Apart from those you've mentioned Predators should be 250 and Vindicators should be 225. Your Terminators are 325 when they are normally 350 and Whirlwinds 275 when they are normally 300, I hope these are mistakes also?

I think the list should keep it's distinctive Assault Terminators either as well as or instead of normal Terminators. Lysander is known to have use Titanhammer formations of Assault Terminators when going up against large enemy war engines or titans - see here.

I think having two separate attack and defender style lists for the Fists is superfluous and a very bad idea too. No existing epic race does this - there's only one Krieg list which can both attack or defend and the same should apply to the Imperial Fists.

Fortifications and minefields should be included in the list. If transport flyers and fortifications are felt to be too powerful together (they may or may not be) allow only 0-1 transport flyer if any piece of defensive fortifications are taken (or visa versa). You could have the core list and separate sub-groupings for 'Air Attack' and 'Defensive Fortifications' that a player has to choose between when making his army list.

Having just read through the Imperial Fists Sentinels of Terra Codex the one thing which is hammered home repeatedly about the Imperial Fists is their stubbornness and unwillingness to flee from fighting, even when it would be strategic to do so. As the codex puts it: "The Imperial Fists are notoriously stubborn, a trait inherited from their
Primarch, Rogal Dorn. This can often be a burden, compelling many of their strike forces to carry on with a task in the face of all reason, and even at the cost of their own lives. At other times, though, their fabled tenacity can allow them to endure where others would have failed or turned back, overcoming terrible odds through a sheer unwillingness to admit defeat." and elsewhere "Phalanx’s librarius contains many tales of Imperial Fists who have died needlessly, driven to fight on when their Chapter and the Imperium both would have been better served by shamed, but living, warriors. Squads, companies – and if rumour speaks truly, a yet greater tithe of the Chapter’s strength – have perished in this manner at one time or another." I think this stubbornness should be represented in Epic. The way it works could be discussed but my tentative off the top of my head suggestion would be that if any Fists formation looses an assault for by one single point only then it immediately fights another round (as if it had drawn) but the enemy force gets an extra point to their assault resolution score for this (and any subsequent rounds). This would have no effect if they loose by 2 or more points and it would reflect the stubbornness in both good and bad ways for the Fists.

Imperial Fists are are noted as stubbornly taking heavy casualties and having a larger than normal recruitment drive and base of scouts than other chapters. I would suggest Scouts could be a 1+ choice in the Epic list to represent this.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Imperial fists siege assault vanguard v0.1 EXPERIMENTAL
PostPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2013 5:11 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2005 1:24 am
Posts: 4499
Location: Melbourne, Australia
GlynG wrote:
The list NEEDS Assault Centurions and Devestator Centurions. The Imperial Fists use loads of them - see GW's new Imperial Fists codex (Sentinels of Terra), where lots of Centurions is the core of how the Imperial Fists list differs from codex marines.

What minis do you propose to use as these Glyn? Just curious.

GlynG wrote:
You've used the wrong list as the base and missed out the 2012 changes to the core list. Apart from those you've mentioned Predators should be 250 and Vindicators should be 225. Your Terminators are 325 when they are normally 350 and Whirlwinds 275 when they are normally 300, I hope these are mistakes also?

Good catch on the Preds, Whirlwinds and Vindicators! I completely missed those. His Terminators aren't the normal ones so a 25 point deduction isn't unheard of or beyond the bounds of fair.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Imperial fists siege assault vanguard v0.1 EXPERIMENTAL
PostPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2013 10:55 am 
Hybrid
Hybrid
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2011 12:03 pm
Posts: 6355
Location: Leicester UK
Thanks for the corrections, I used an EUK template but missed a bunch it seems

the termies are slightly cheaper as they lack a decent shooting attack, coupled with the removal of thawks as a delivery method I think it's justified

regarding centurions, I'm not opposed to adding them in, but can't see what they really bring to the list, I took the siege dread out as having a slow assault formation which can't be transported easily is a duff option IMO, then if you give them teleport or similar you step on the toes of the terminators somewhat.

from a thematic POV I really hate the centurions, awful models, awful idea, but as I said if it's what people want then we can put them in at a later date if we find a screaming need for them in the list

_________________
Just some guy

My hobby/painting threads

Army Forge List Co-ordinator


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Imperial fists siege assault vanguard v0.1 EXPERIMENTAL
PostPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2013 11:19 am 
Hybrid
Hybrid
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2011 12:03 pm
Posts: 6355
Location: Leicester UK
GlynG, I hadn't read the 40k book, so thanks for the info, I think something less complicated may be a better starting point to represent the tenacity of the fists, having a built-in leader function which removes an extra blast marker when regrouping was something I had considered, I don't like the direction they've taken in that the fists fight on when they should withdraw and sometimes throw their lives away.... I know they've done it on occasion, but not particularly keen on making it a rule unless there is a consensus

I'll think about adding fortifications back in for testing, my concern is that they encourage static defensive play, which can be very boring

thanks for the comments :D

_________________
Just some guy

My hobby/painting threads

Army Forge List Co-ordinator


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Imperial fists siege assault vanguard v0.1 EXPERIMENTAL
PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2013 12:00 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2005 12:13 am
Posts: 8711
Location: Leipzig, Germany, Europe, Sol III, Orion Arm, Milky Way, Local Group, Virgo Supercluster, Universe
IF stubborness sounds very much liek the Intractable special rule for the Dark Angels.

_________________
We are returned!
http://www.epic-wargaming.de/


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Imperial fists siege assault vanguard v0.1 EXPERIMENTAL
PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2013 6:17 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2005 1:24 am
Posts: 4499
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Kyuss the fortifications could be tied to objective markers like the Wraithgate i.e "Replace any enemy objective with the Fortification." It could become a fully functioning objective rather than a game piece. You could mount garrisons (perhaps of formations other than the usual restrictions etc) in it for a bit more speed in a slow army .... Just a spit ball idea anyway.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Imperial fists siege assault vanguard v0.1 EXPERIMENTAL
PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2013 8:28 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2012 9:35 am
Posts: 3338
Location: Norrköping, Sweden.
Cool idea!

_________________
https://epic40ksweden.wordpress.com/

"You have a right to be offended" - Steve Hughes
"Your feelings are hurting my thoughts" - Aron Flam


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Imperial fists siege assault vanguard v0.1 EXPERIMENTAL
PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2013 9:44 am 
Hybrid
Hybrid
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2011 12:03 pm
Posts: 6355
Location: Leicester UK
Dobbsy, I really like that idea, will think about how to implement it

_________________
Just some guy

My hobby/painting threads

Army Forge List Co-ordinator


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Imperial fists siege assault vanguard v0.1 EXPERIMENTAL
PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2013 12:18 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2005 1:24 am
Posts: 4499
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Theoretically, if you make the objective a Bastion(tower type thingy- only fair to keep it smallish if it replaces a small objective), you could garrison other fortifications (trenches, bunkers etc) off it if you made them 0cm move units and then other infantry formations could garrison off the bastion into those fortifications. Alternatively, you could buy fortifications with the infantry in the purchase or give the IF fortifications as the replacement "vehicle" from the Space Marine Transports rules....

The rest of the army could then be built around attacking if people wanted.

Personally, I'd really like to see the Imperial Fist list working in conjunction with the Iron Warriors to complement/counter each other to some degree. Thinking more on this, it would be an awesome supplement if we could put the Iron Warriors together with the Imperial Fists. Could be Epic: Nemesis part 2 - well if I ever get the first part out! :D


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Imperial fists siege assault vanguard v0.1 EXPERIMENTAL
PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2013 2:40 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2005 12:13 am
Posts: 8711
Location: Leipzig, Germany, Europe, Sol III, Orion Arm, Milky Way, Local Group, Virgo Supercluster, Universe
The Castellum Stronghold would be ideal for this.

_________________
We are returned!
http://www.epic-wargaming.de/


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Imperial fists siege assault vanguard v0.1 EXPERIMENTAL
PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2013 3:35 pm 
Hybrid
Hybrid
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2011 12:03 pm
Posts: 6355
Location: Leicester UK
Not the pop-up-and-play romper fort...... a generic 'command bunker' will do just fine.... ;)

_________________
Just some guy

My hobby/painting threads

Army Forge List Co-ordinator


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Imperial fists siege assault vanguard v0.1 EXPERIMENTAL
PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2013 3:59 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2005 1:24 am
Posts: 4499
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Yeah this is what I had in mind
Image
but it could be anything you wanted to model really.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Imperial fists siege assault vanguard v0.1 EXPERIMENTAL
PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 6:39 am 
Hybrid
Hybrid
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2011 9:55 pm
Posts: 230
Location: New York, NY
I like the idea of swapping out an objective for a fortification and adding trenches to that for a forward garrison. Would bring a little bit of narrative gaming to a tournament scenario, and hopefully in a balanced way (would of course need play testing).

As for Centurions, I know they're a "Thing" for the Fists after the most recent sub-dex, but I have a hard time imagining a role for them (Epic or 40k) that a larger/cheaper devastator formation our comparable assault terminator formation couldn't do the same/better. Unless they were a 0-2 upgrade for a tactical formation, maybe a dreadnought alternative of sorts (although harder to proxy).

_________________
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/armiger84/?hl=en

My General Modelling Blog: http://armiger84.blogspot.com/


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 27 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  


Powered by phpBB ® Forum Software © phpBB Group
CoDFaction Style by Daniel St. Jules of Gamexe.net